If, if, if but he made the kick that Brady set up. Let's say he misses and thye lose that's still only ONE 1 and done. Manning has been one and done SIX times! read this: http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=fleming/090930&sportCat=nfl
And neither did Brady until 2007. Coincidentally that happened to be the same year Randy Moss arrived…Who was on the 1998 Vikings team…Who was the team that had originally set the record for most points scored in a season…hmmm…… Not bad considering they had a QB who hadn’t started since High School. Not in a down the field system. He had success in 2007 until the Philly game when teams figured out how to defend Randy Moss. He went from completing 74% of his passes down to 61.6%. He threw half of his INTs after the Philly game. And went from having no games with a rating under 95 to having 3 under 80. His average yards per attempt also dropped from 9.05 to 7.27. I call this the Randy Moss affect. He’s made every QB he’s ever played for better. This overrated D only gave up 17 points. The overrated Brady only put up 14. He stunk in that game and only had success when they went back to the underneath passes to Welker. Brady had timeouts to use. I didn’t say Manning hasn’t played bad in the playoffs. Brady has played terribly against Den ’05, SD ’06, Ind ’06, SD ’07, NYG ’07…. Hmmm … All of those games were played after Weiss left. Is this seriously what your argument is going to be agasint Brees with? In 2008 the Saints defense gave up more than 20 points in 13 games. 10 games they gave up more than 25 and 6 games they gave up more than 30. In the first 4 games in 2007 the defense gave up 41, 31, 31 and 16 against Indy, Tampa, Tenn and Carolina. Here are their rankings in Pts Allowed for the season. Indy – 1, Tampa – 3, Tenn – 8 and Carolina 15. Their defense gave up 20 or more points in 9 games, more than 25 points in 7 games and more than 30 in 6 games. Are you really trying to suggest the reason they did not go to the playoffs was because of Brees? What’s the common denominator with the Jets team and the Bears team? They actually have really good defenses. As the old saying goes…the other teams gets paid too. And he would have beaten us in 2004 if his kicker made a FG. Too bad he didn’t have Vinateri. 1100 yds and 11 TDs is spectacular And he didn’t win the Super Bowl w/o AV either.
Oh, and Ray Perkins had no big time offenses? 1974 Patriots 24.9 ppg #2 NFL 1976 Patriots 26.9 ppg #2 NFL 1977 Patriots 19.9 ppg #9 NFL 1978 Chargers 22.2 ppg #6 NFL
Guess what else Brady benefited from besides a HOF kicker and a great system for him to work.... 2001 - Defense was 6th in PPG allowed and 24th in Yds 2003 - Defense was 1st in PPG allowed and 7th in Yds 2004 - Defense was 2nd in PPG allowed and 9th in Yds
Brady did have big offeenses- when it mattered. Did Ray Perkins ever win any Championship? That QB that hadn't started since HS had been in their system learning behind the best QB in the game for years and he faced an easier sched and the Pats still lost 5 more games than the year before. yes it took teams 3/4 of a season ti figure out Tom Brady which is why he lost so many games after they figured him out and they are still losing games. W/o Brady rescuing them on that increidble final drive they don't win that SB against SL. TOs stood for turnovers. Still made plays to beat SD in '06, his D choked against Indy and he had worse talent than usual around him, SD '07 he led them to a double digit win and against the Giants he led an 80 yd drive that should have won the game. We have different definitions of terrible. Terrible would be Peyton against us or his chokes against Ten, Mia, NE, NE, Pitt, SD, SD you can have a greaqt D but 12 PPG isn't cutting it, those are Manning-like postseason #s. He hasn't been able to play big in big games YET. Until he does I cannot put him on a level w/ Brady and Ben. That "great" Bears D gave up 24 at home the week before to Seattle and won in OT. 1100 is not spectacular, it's good. 11 TDs is really good but looks take a closer look: -2 TDs at Indy in 44-13 win, 4 yd rush to put them up 7-0. 2 yd rush to put them up 44-13. no big deal. -1 TD in 30-10 loss at Miami. 9 yd run to put themup 7-0. good job on TD but he had 14-47 that day. -1 yd TD in 29-26 win over SD. -1 and 42 yd runs against Bills in 21-11 win. great long run. -3 yd run in 4th qtr of blowout win over NO -4 yd run against us -1 and 5 yd runs against Cle -2 yd run against Miami -32 yd run in blowout of Car he had 3 runs of over 5 yds, 2 over 10. Not that impressive when you break it down. He didn't win the SB w/o AV but he got there, has Peyton ever done that?
Perkins wasn't the OC, he was on the staff of the pats in those years. he was OC in SD and they were 6th but after he left they were ranked 2,4,1,1 in the next 4 years. That was also Don Coryell's 1st year and we know that was his offense. In '01 they also almost choked away the SB giivng up 14 4th qtr pts In '03 they were ripped apart by Carolina In '04 they gave up 27 and 21 pts i the conf ttile game and SB
How about the Years NE didn't win the SB 2002 - Defense was 18th in PPG allowed and 23rd in Yds 2005 - Defense was 17th in PPG allowed and 26th in Yds 2006 - Defense was 2nd in PPG allowed and 6th in Yds - Brady choked in the 4th quarter of the AFC Championship Game stalling twice and having to kick FGs 2007 - Defense was 4th in PPG allowed and 4th in Yds - Brady choked in the Super Bowl scoring only 14 points after offense averaged over 34 per game during the Regular Season (including against top teams)
2002 the D gave up 30 pts to the Jets at home in week 16 and the O rescued them a week later against Miami socring 11 pts in the final mins to tie the game. 2005 the D allowed 27 pts to Denver 2006 yes Brady choked b/c he allowed 32 2nd half points against one of the legendary choking QBs of all time. 2007 yes Brady choked by leading his team 80 yds and giving his team a 14-10 lead w/ 2 1/2 to play.
Now we've gone to comparing coaches to QBs? Yes, Perkins did win a Championship. He was on the Colts when they won Super Bowl V. Did he win 11 games as their QB or not? Winning is a team thing not an individual. They won despite his struggles (ie 2007 AFC Championship Game) JR Redmond, Ty Law and Adam Vinateri rescued Brady and the Pats. The defense gave up 17 points to the top rated Offense in the league. How much rescuing did Brady actually do? Always someone else. The D choked? He had a chance to put them away but had to settle for 4th qtr FGs. They beat SD in '07 by double digits because of their Defense NOT Brady. And he was awful in the SB against the Giants and had to go back to short dump off passes when the Giants were playing in a deep coverage. And they STILL LOST THE GAME! They scored 17 points when they averaged over 34. Yay Brady! Terrible is in 2008 against SD when he threw for over 300 yards and did not turn the ball over?!?!? WTF are you talking about?!?! He hasn't been able to play in big games yet because his defense has been awful. He's far exceeded his end of the bargain. They were in it thru 3 only trailing 18-14 until struggling in the 4th quarter because he was under a ton of pressure. Are you serious? So, if it's a lot harder to score from the 10 because there's a lot less space, then it would be even more difficult to score from inside the 5 because there's even less space. Peyton has not gotten to the SB w/o AV however, Vanderjagt has cost them Postseason games which is the reason they went out and got AV.
Defense plays poorly and the result is: Brady doesn't make the playoffs. See how this works? If the defense plays well Brady is successful. Brady is NOT the reason for the Pats success!! It has been proven. Defense plays poorly and the result is: Brady doesn't make the Super Bowl. If the defense plays well Brady is successful. Brady is NOT the reason for the Pats success!! It has been proven. Defense plays poorly and the result is: Brady doesn't make the Super Bowl. If the defense plays well Brady is successful. Brady is NOT the reason for the Pats success!! It has been proven. 2007 Patriots averaged more than 34 points per game but only scored 14 in the Super Bowl. The defense held the Giants to only 17 points but they STILL LOST! Why didn't Brady put up more points? He's the reason they lost. Unless you still want to blame the defense who only allowed 17 points which should have been more than enough for the All-Time most prolific offense.
New England did not have an offensive Coordinator. They had offensive assistants which included Red Miller, Ray Perkins and Ron Erhardt.
If we're calling runs of 5 yards or less not that impressive then can we take away 16 of Brady's 50 TDs from 2007?
LOL, great line at the end there... try some Listerine and a hot shower. I know it probably feels really gross. :wink: :beer: I don't know if you guys remember, but there weren't too many Joe Montana fans outside of SF during the 80s. Personally I hated the guy, thought he was smug, and all that. To a lesser extent, I used to feel the same way about guys like Derek Jeter, but he makes it really difficult to dislike him. Point is, when you have success, you'll have more than your share of critics and haters. The fact that so many people seem to hate Brady and the Pats is like a badge of honor for those who understand what that means. No one hates the '08 Detroit Lions (except Detroit fans) or, say, Rex Grossman (except, well, people who like good football). :smile:
He's good. He runs the system well...He's just not better than Manning. And he's no Joe Montana either.
You told me how great Ray Perkins was, what has he ever really done? He won 11 on a team that won 16 w/ Brady against a tougher sched. Winning is a team thing but when all the pieces are in place like on NE and Indy most of this decade then the QB makes the difference and the biggest difference btw NE and Indy has been at QB. The D gave up 14 in the 14th qtr. if that game goes to OT and SL wins the toss SL is winning. Brady made sure it didn't get to OT w/ a incredible drive to win it. Always somebody else for Manning. You are blaming Brady for every loss which isn't fair especially when he made plays to win games unlike Peyton in his playoff losses. It's amazing you can call his SB XLII performance awful yet defend Manning's postseason track record. Threw for over 300 yds and 2 critical INTs that cost them at least 3 points each time and they lost by 4. He had a great team around him in SD and could only get to postseason once and lost in the WC rd. Most of those TD runs were 1-3 yds. yes Vanderjagt cost them I was waiting for this excuse. vanderjagt was the Peyton Manning of kickers. he did choke but the Miami FG was a very long FG and the one vs. Pitt Manning decided w/ a 2nd and 2 to throw the ball to the EZ twice instead of moving the chains and getting K closer. Brady missed the playoffs once, it was more SB hangover than anything else. Sure the D playing poorly can hurt an offense but when was that the reason for Peyton? 1999: D allowed 19 2000: D allowed 17 in regulation 2002: yes the D allowed 41 but you can win a game giving up 41 pts but it's impossible to win scoring ZERO which Peyton led the Colts to. 2003: D allowed 24 2004: D allowed 20 2005: D allowed 21 2007: D allowed 28 2008: D allowed 23 The only game you can begin to argue is '07 against SD but Peyton TOs hurt their D and prevented them from winning. So then it wasn't Perkins offense, was it? OK then we take away 17 of Peyton's 49 from 2004.
Good analogies, as a kid I thought Montana was overrated but as I got older and watched him more I understood the greatness. I also used to think Nomar and ARod were better SS' than jeter but if I had the choice I'd take Jeter in a heartbeat. Jeter vs. ARod is like Brady vs. manning- the 2 winners who get it done in big spots vs. the 2 great fantasy players.
Production-wise, Manning will hold every record in the book by the time he's done. It's not hard to make a case for him. But what my hang-up is with Manning is the 7-8 career playoff record. And people blame the Colts' defense, but in those eight losses, the offense has scored less than 14 points/game. Fact of the matter remains... when the stakes are at their highest, Manning has not played at his best, at least not with any consistency. Sure he had the huge games against Denver and KC in '03 and '04, and he played his ass off in the second half of the AFCCG in '06, but for the most part, come January, he's been average at best. Not a criticism... just fact.
I'd also take Jeter in a heartbeat. (And now I feel dirty...) :wink: I also have to wonder what Manning's career would have been like without having a Hall of Fame wideout until this year... and Reggie Wayne is no slouch. Manning's always had good, talented players around him. The same can't be said for Brady.
