One thing about TJ though...he doesnt put the ball on the ground. It could be due to the fact that he looks like he could bench press a school bus. I remember reading somewhere that Tiki actually meet with someone who developed a specific weight training program designed to help him hold on to the ball. Working specific muscles more than other I guess...maybe that what Shonn needs
This post is wrong. nfl.com shows Leon had 1 fumble in 71 carries in 07 and 1 fumble in 76 carries in 08. His three other fumbles in 07 were on returns, and the two others in 08 one was on a return, the other was on a pass reception, the numbers for all of which were not counted in the numbers quoted by flg.
I know why we did this... so when an unprepared team sees a Washington jersey in the backfield they'll think Leon is back
This post is also incorrect. Jones had three fumbles on 112 rushing attempts. His fourth fumble came on a pass reception, of which he had 32 that year. So, that was 4 fumbles on 144 touches, a much lower rate than Green has shown so far.
EDIT: Since this BB put me on his ignore list, I'm going to make this a more general statement. While the rate of fumbles per carry/touch is going down here, this is really only proving that Leon and Jones were both risks for potential fumbles at every aspect of the game. Greene doesn't get too many looks in the passing game and he's not a return guy so his ratio of fumbles per carry is going to go up, also because he is fumbling the ball more often. Still, three fumbles on a season thus far is not as awful as Cimini and Adam Schein have been making it look. I cannot remember the Carolina fumble but the Miami fumble was due mostly to Greene being an idiot and thinking he can break a tackle on a solid wrap-up against an NFL D-Lineman, while last weeks was trying to break another tackle. Mostly, it seems to me that he just needs to learn when to fall down instead of trying to rip through defenses like he is still in college.
Bullshit.....at 5'11", 224#, looking for a fullback for TRich to groom maybe..... Greene is a rookie folks, no different then Sanchez. Cut him a little slack - like you do Sanchez. There is nothing wrong with Shonne Greene that another offseason in the weight room, and a bit more game experience won't take care of. This kid is a VERY promising RB. I was glad when we drafted him, and I'm even more glad now. Look at his numbers. He is averaging 5.0 yds/carry in his rookie year....with both TJ and Leon averaging .5 per carry less. So he put the ball on the ground a few times his rookie season..big fucking deal. Anyone here ever hear of a back named Tiki Barber ? He fumbled a lot when he was green too. How'd that turn out? This kid is going to be special once he gets some more strength and experience.
Beanie Wells has some ball handling issues as well. It comes with the territory. College defenses primarily focus on making tackles, they don't emphasize as much on stripping the ball (unless the player can do it instinctively). Once these guys hit the NFL, they learn how to go after that ball. Like the defensive player, Greene will also learn new techniques to cover the ball up. Little things like this concern me about the coaching staff. Greene AND Sanchez alike have had issues with taking care of the football. Sometimes you have to get back to the basics and make sure these players have sound technique. I think the problem will eventually fix itself. Hopefully sooner than later.
It is actually kind of difficult to change the way you have been playing for your entire life when you have to do it while going full speed. Give them some practice time in the offseason to work on it and in all likelihood these problems will be taken care of. You have to practice new techniques over and over until they become instinctive and replace your old habits. I hate to use him as an example, mostly because I hate the cunt, but look at Tiki Barber. Nine fumbles in 2003 dropping to 5 in 2004 and 1 in 2005. Granted there was a coaching change but look at the numbers. He doesn't go from 9 to one, there's a step in the process. Greene is going to need time to learn how to hold the ball and he is not going to learn this particular mechanic while he's avoiding tackles.
You guys are killing me. Barber's rookie season was 97. He had 136 rushing attempts and 34 receptions. Fumbles? 3. Yes, he had 9 fumbles in each of 00, 02 and 03. But he also had the following touches: 2000 213 rushes, 70 receptions 2002 304 rushes, 69 receptions 2003 278 rushes, 69 receptions And of course the "Tiki fumbled too!" argument ignores that his fumbling was perceived as a huge problem, which it was. Do we really have to go over that? But the point in any event concerning 2000-2003 was he was already established as the team's go to RB, and was quite productive. If the argument is his rookie season Barber fumbled as much as Green, that is incorrect. On a per touch basis he didn't even fumble as much at any point in his career.
The part that kills me the most about Greene its seems his fumbles come at the end of a great run. Tiki Stats 2000 - 2003 CARRIES FUMBLES LOST 2003 New York Giants 278 9 6 2002 New York Giants 304 9 6 2001 New York Giants 166 8 2 2000 New York Giants 213 9 3 Shit load of fumbles...but if Shonn has a Tiki-like career minus the assholeness Tiki displayed....I'll take it in a minute.
ok...screw Tiki. Barry Sanders fumbled 10 times his rookie year. He turned out to be decent. Eric Dickerson...13 times...2nd year 14 times...3rd year...10 times....4th year...12 times...he ended up having a ok career too.
Again, those fumble totals include receptions. Did you not realize that or just chose to leave them out since that did not fit your point? Barber had the following receptions: 2000 70 2001 72 2002 69 2003 69 Also your own stats show that only roughly half of Barber's fumbles were actually turned over, while all of Green's have been turnovers. Green also has no receptions. Barber was a key receiver on their team, even in his rookie year. While Green's average gain per carry is excellent, that's the only stat I can think of that compares favorably, and imo that is balanced by his lack of contribution to the passing game and his much higher turnover rate.
Just out of curiosity, is there any chance that this is a special teams signing. Brad Smith used to block on KRs for Washington and Lowery when they did their returns but now it seems like he's taking over the KR job. Does anyone know how/if Dallas used him on the KR team?
Again, a general statement, but what does BB think he's proving here? This stat is mostly about luck and has nothing to do with skill. It all depends on who is around you when you drop the ball. If Greene didn't hit in the backfield against Miami than that fumble has every chance to be recovered by the Jets. Taylor in this case was lucky to be standing right in front of Greene when it happened. Or is Blocker trying to tell us that Barber somehow directs the ball to his teammates after he drops it with greater success than Greene?
the kid seems to have good body control and pretty good vision from what I saw on the highlight reel. Now if they sign him, odds are he doesn't really contribute anything this year.
I disagree with you. You can emphasize things as a position coach, and work on techniques to make things better. You're right that it doesn't happen overnight. However, over the course of a season those skills should get stronger. If you watch tape of Greene and Sanchez, they STILL do a lot of things they did early. Without getting away from RBs too much, I'll say that Sanchez has alittle bit more to think about, so he gets a semipass. Greene has been carrying the ball the same since Iowa. Our CS should have identified his short comings when they drafted him, I'm sure they did. That being said, the position coach should take extra time to work on this with him. Especially since the departure of Washington, he didn't have the luxury of waiting a season to work on things. I've been a running backs coach for some time now. The hardest ball handling skill to actually change on a back is how they accept handoffs, that part becomes instinctual, and it's incredibly difficult to change. However, carrying the ball in open field shouldn't be as tough to change. You can't carry it like a loaf of bread and expect someone not to hit it. These are fundamentals that need to be enforced.
Eric Dickerson?!? Did you say Eric Dickerson?!? Eric Dickerson was one of the greatest backs in the history of the league. Saying Green might have some similarities to the WORST PART of Dickerson's game is an odd argument. Again, in ED's first year he had 390 rushing attempts and 52 receptions along with those 13 fumbles. He also had 2212 yds from scrimmage, as a freakin rookie. So, he had 442 touches and 13 fumbles. That is STILL a better rate than Green. And HOI, Shonn Green is no Eric Dickerson.
