Trent Dilfer is a better QB than Dan Marino because they both went to a SB, but Dilfer won (1-0) in his appearance and Marino lost (0-1) in his. Black and white and stats and logic.
When will it not be about stats but how a man goes about perfecting his craft? If that were the argument, it would be a quick one.
I realize reading isn't one of your strong points but pklase tell me where I have ever absolved Brady of blame int hat SB? I have simply stated a fact that although he didn't perform at his usual level that even w/ a bad game he led the team on an 80 yd drive w/ the super Bowl on the line only to watch his defense blow it. You have no argument, at least Murrell is trying. It's like you aren't even reading any of the posts, you haven't shown a shred of evidence in support of Manning. I guess your name has to be peyton Manning to get credit for winning games which is why the great Peyton won SB MVP for his amazing performance that watched his 2 RBs rush for nearly 200 yds but he's Peyton so he gets credit. Peyton has always elevated talent around him...until the calendar turns to January. That's been my problem w/ him. That's why he's not a top 5 QB yet. It boggles my mind how you minimize what Brady did against SL. if that was so easy why hasn't manning doen it and won more SBs? He has turned it over plenty but has he consistently cost his team games? A 46 yd Fg is NEVER an easy FG. It's makeable but it's not a chip shot. Charlie weis was strippe dof playcalling in 1998 and the guy given the most credit for vinny's great year was Dan Henning. how is that reaching? Limiting bad TOs, leading your O to pts, leading your O on longer drives will always affect your defense. I don't know why they didn't win in '07. I do know they struggled down the stretch and in postseason. I'm not sure why but they did but even struggling he led them to a SB. Brady carried 3 teams to SB titles so obviously he's good enough to do it. W/o Brady the Pats don't have a single SB title this decade. When has peyton carried Indy to a SB? It's never happened, he was carried in 2006 w/ his amazing 3 TD 7 INT postseason where he had one great half in 4 games. Where did I stray from the topic? This is about best QB of the decade, it's about Brady vs. Manning. just b/c I made another valid point you choose to ignore doesn't mean it's off topic. What does this have to do w/ this discussion? The argument hasn't been made solely b/c Brady has 2 more Championships and 2 more SB apps in less seasons played. They have both had SB caliber talent around them, one QB consistently elevated his team to greatness while one did not. For those who don't have short memories this is an easy debate. For others caught up in the moment who forget all peyton's awful postseason performances and all of Brady's great ones they think Peyton is better. RIGHT NOW Peyton is better, for the decade and for their careers it's clearly Brady.
Did I ever say Peyton deserved that MVP? Brady didn?t deserve the one he got in SB 36 either. Two Rookie WRs had over 100 yds and a TD in the Championship Game last week. What did Brady do? He benefited from a defense that forced turnovers and a kicker that hit a 48 yd FG with no time on the clock. On the drive to set up that FG he dumped the ball off to JR Redmond who move the ball down the field and made a great play getting out of bounds to stop the clock. Brady didn?t orchestrate some great drive. He benefited from the great plays of the other guys on the field. He didn?t do anything wrong on that drive, but he wasn?t the reason they got into FG range. Brady has been the Manning of the first half of the decade since 2004. I?m sorry..but a 46 yd FG for a kicker at home in the dome who nailed them from that range very consistently is easily makeable. They were in FG range. Brady had one less INT than Bledsoe did the year before, and the offense turned the ball over 3 MORE times in 2001 than they did in 2000. Your theory the Brady is the reason the Pats defense gave up less points in 2001 is a weak one. That 3 INT game against the Chargers was a great job ?leading? them to the SB. He got lucky the defense stepped up against the Chargers. W/o the defense and Vinateri they don?t have a single SB this decade. Brady has had a TON of awful postseason performances. Or do you have a short memory? 2005 @ Denver - 2 INTs incl. crucial on to Bailey 2006 @ SD - 3 INTs incl. one that should have been the game ender 2006 @ Ind - Stats look better than how he actually played. He missed a ton of opportunites and allowed the Colts to come back in the 2nd half 2007 vs SD - 3 INTs was lucky the defense resuced him 2007 vs NYG - Could only put up 14 points when team averaged 37 2009 vs Bal - 3 INTs Peyton is better NOW and is better when looking back thru the decade.
Brady did not deserve that first SB MVP award BUT at least he did something, he led one of the greatest drives in SB history so a case could be made for him. peyton won it as a lifetime achievment award. Those 2 rookie WRs(especially garcon) are very talented guys. We had a banged up secondary, we took away Clark and Wayne and he exploited guys like Drew Coleman. He was GREAT on Sunday, if he had more postseason performances like that there wouldn't be a debate. His D gave up a 14 pt lead in the 4th qtr, SL had all the momentum. if that game gets to OT and SL wins the toss SL is winning the SB. As a 1st year starter w/ no timeouts, just over a minute and inside his 20 he led the to the GW FG. I can't believe I have to explain to you how difficult that is. Most coaches w/ a vet QB would take a knee there. In 2004 Brady won his 3rd SB, he torched a great Pitt D in the title game. Since '05 maybe BUT at least Brady has had moments. Brady led his team to a close AFC Title Game loss, he led them to a SB. Manning wasn't doing that. 46 is never an easy FG especially for a guy who was not a clutch guy and w/ their season on the line. It's not about the # of INts, it's about where and when those INts happened. It wasn't the killer Drw INTs, he was leading hisn O's to more points, managing the game better- remember that he was a 1st year QB. he wasn't great yet but he was a differnece maker. Their avg. TOP was over a min and a half better than 2000. It's funny b/c I remember Brady coming in against us in 2001. I remmeber how NE could do nothing all day, thinking how NE was now done b/c Bledsoe was hurt and they had to rely on a 2nd yr QB who couldn't even start all the games in college. THEN Brady steps on the field w/ just over 2 mins left, no TOs needing 74 yds and almost leads them to the game tying TD. You could instantly see the difference the moment he stepped on the field and if he had a little more time or a timout or 2 that game would have gone to OT. He absolutely got lucky against SD but again when presetned a gift he took advantage just like the tuck rule game. of course the D and Vinatieri played huge roles but the difference maker was at QB. The D folded many times in big spots but Brady never did during the dynasty years. '05 at Den was his first playoff loss. '06 at SD he wasn't great but made the plays to win when given a gift. 2006 at Indy he wasn't awful, it was aamzing to have that awful collection of "talent" even in the title game let alone w/ a chance to win. '07 SD wasn't great but good enough. His INts weren't killer and he kept putting up points when they needed them. '07 vs. NYG, wasn't great but wasn't bad either and led 80 yd drive in final mins to give D lead. '09 Bal he was awful he's had maybe 2-3 bad playoff games. let's check on peyton: Ten '99: 19-42, led team to garbage time Td to make game look closer in 19-16 loss. Mia '00: against legendary choking D could only lead his team to 17 pts in 5 qtrs NYJ '02: was SHUT OUT NE: '03: 4 INts and sacked for safety in 24-14 loss NE '04: led his O that averaged 33 PPG to just THREE in 20-3 loss. Pitt '05: given multiple gufts to win that game and couldn't do it. Peyton is better now, Brady is clearly better in the 00s. here's another great #: reg season: Manning: 115-45, 72 % Brady: 97-30, 76% post season; manning: 9-8, 53% Brady: 14-4, 78% Brady's win % goes up in postseason, mannign's goes significantly down. '07
The fact that you don?t get the reason they marched down the field was because of the play of Redmond and Brown and NOT Brady is a little silly. He dumped the ball off to those guys who made the plays. Let?s get real here. He didn?t carve up the STL defense and marched them down. He got lucky Redmond was able to get out of bounds after a GREAT play by Redmond. Do you know the play that I?m talking about? The degree of difficulty for Brady on that drive was minimal. He led them to a close AFC Title loss? He was mediocre in that game. He had the chance to put the game away but kept coming up with FGs after they were given GREAT field position. He was in FG Range. Vanderjagt hit from that range consistently and was not known as a choker at that time. Yes, their avg. TOP was more than a minute and a half. That has a lot to do with Antoine Smith who had a very good year running the football. The Pats two leading rushers in 2000 averaged 3.5 and 3.1 YPC. Smith averaged 4 YPC. I was at that game. I remember it clearly. I also remember the Jets defense playing softer. He got lucky Vinateri could kick a 45 yd FG in a blizzard. 2006 at Indy he was mediocre. Had great field position all 2nd half and could only muster 13 points. 2007 vs SD only reason the INTs weren?t killer were because the defense saved him, and SD were w/o Tomlinson and Gates 2007 vs NYG put up only 7 points until late into the 4th qtr when the team AVERAGED 37 PPG
seems you are the one having trouble reading, as I have at no point in this exchange attempted to claim Manning was better, I'm simply pointing out the flaws of your argument, which you have neither provided evidence to support but make hypocritical arguments by judging each QB's equal failures and accomplishments differently simply to defend your flawed position. the only way you can come to your conclusion is to ignore the realty of the games. you blame Manning for his defense losing the game, his kicker losing the game, etc but absolve Brady when his D loses the game by saying "hey, at least he tried." if two QB's lead their teams into field goal position at the end of the game, and one team misses the FG and the other makes it, the outcomes of those kicks don't reflect differently of the QB's prior to that. that is simply an asinine and illogical argument. luckily nobody expects much more from you. arguing logic with you is like arguing what color a fire hydrant is with a someone who is color blind -- you just can't see it so your opinion simply doesn't reflect reality.
You haven't pointed out any flaws. You were saying how could he lead that great offense to just 14 pts w/o realizing in '04 Manning, w/ a similar offense, lewd his O to 3 pts in their playoff loss. There's that reading thing again, I have never said it was all manning while absolving his D and other players and I have never said it was all Brady wehn NE won. What's funny is I said Brady was terrible against bal and deserved most of the blame, I said against NE he deserved his share of the blame but he did lead his team 80 yds for the go ahead TD in the fianl mins only to watch his D blow it- Has Peyton ever done that? You are great at hurling insults- congrats on that- but please allow those that know what they are talking about to discuss this issue.
I can't help you on this, I know you understand the game better than you are showing now. to dismiss what Brady did is just asinine and it's not wroth my time anymore. The degree of difficulty was minimal? One bad play and it could cost NE the Super Bowl but no pressure.:drunk: he was playing w/ Jabar gaffney and reche Caldwell as his WRs, he had no running game and yet he had that team in that game w/ a chance to win late. It was a miracle he led them to the title game and a miracle he could get that team to w/in a couple of mins of the SB. Just another reason he wins this debate, when has peyton ever taken a subpar team on a run to the title game? 46 is a difficult K w/ the season on the line for a guy who never made a big kick and struggled in his postseason career. I guess it was magic that when Brady stepped on the field they looked better. The great Antowain Smith(as I am finding out now- the REAL reason for NE's run) ran it 21-53 for 2.5 YPC in the 2 games w/o Brady but magically he got it going when tom stepped on the field. Maybe the threat of a passing game helped open things up a bit? i don't know. of course the Jets D played softer, it couldn't have been Brady doing anything well. He had a great kicker, no doubt that helped. he also got him in a range he was comfortable w/. 2006 at Indy he did a miraculous job to give them a chance to win. 2007 the game was never in jeopardy and they didn't get to play in a dome. Mistakes happen outside in NE football- ask Peyton. Peyton outdoors in the northeast in postseason(I'll include Baltimore to be kind): 1-3, led O's to an average of 8 PPG individual #s: 79-150, 782 yds, 1 TD, 9 INTs, 44.9 rating 2007 vs. NYG, he led themto 14 pts. well below their average but he gave them a chance to win. It wasn't a horrible performance.
Where?s the difficult plays made by Brady? A couple of dump off passes. I?m going to assume you don? t know the JR Redmond play I?ve mentioned repeatedly. It?s difficult to understand why you don? t give him the credit he deserves for that drive. The Running game was the reason they scored their first TD in that game. You just have excuses after excuses for Brady. The fact is he didn?t get the job done despite repeated opportunities with great field position. 46 yd FGs are make able for NFL kickers. He wasn?t known as a choker and was very consistent from that range. So far in this thread you?ve given Brady credit for the defense allowing less ppg than the year before he started, the running game being better, Vinateri kicking 48 yd FGs with the game on the line. One man can do all this?! 2006 at Indy he did a miraculous job?!?! They had the ball in great field position all 2nd half and all he could do was get them 13 points. In the first half they scored one TD because of the ground game and one off an INT. Let me guess?that was all because of Brady right? The 2007 game against the Chargers was in jeopardy. If SD had a healthy Gates NE does not win that game. Brady got lucky.
I know of the play you are talking about, you do realize he didn't snap it to himslef and throw it to himslef, right? You do realize the leadership Brady showed marching that team down the field, right? Where have I not given redmond and brown credit? They made plays, using that logic though I guess we should give all the praise last week to Garcon and Collie and not any to peyton? :rofl: I make excuses. You are funny. Is a 46 yarder a chip shot or not? did peyton have multiple opps to get him closer or not? So the QB not turning it over in big spots, leading his team to more points and holding onto the ball longer doesn't have any effect on the defense? I know you are better than this. Imagine if peyton ever had to play w/ the "talent" Brady had in 2006 then having to go on the road in the title game and nearly getting them to the Super Bowl. You would never shut up about what a great job peyton did if that was the happened. The 2007 game was never in jeopardy and SD had no pronblems w/o gates, LT and Rivers beating Indy but that's b/c peyton gave them the game.
Redmond caught the ball BEHIND the LOS and ran up the field. A defender was draped around his leg and yet he still got out of bounds, and you want Brady to get credit for driving them down the field. If Garcon and Collie caught swing passes and screen passes then ran down the field for scores, then yes you should give credit to them for those plays. But they didn't so we don't give all the praise to them. yes, you do. They were in range. A FG only tied the game. A TD would win the game. If he completed a 5 yd pass and Vanderjagt missed a 41 yd FG you would blame Peyton for not trying for the TD. Brady thew only 1 less INT than Bledsoe did in 2000. They were able to keep the ball longer on offense because of a better running game than they had in 2000. If great QBs are the reason for better running games then why didn't Indy, NO or SD have better running games this year? Your arguments are weak. Brady benefitted from another defensive TD in that game and on their first scoring drive they marched down the field on the ground. He had multiple opportunites w/ great Field Position and could only get 13 pts. On their only TD drive in the 2nd half they started at the Indy 21. The 2007 SD was in jeopardy and would have broken open for the Chargers if they had Gates healthy. The defense saved the season for the Pats only to watch that prolific offense put up a whopping total of 14 pts in the SB.
Garcon made plenty of plays w/ his legs after the catch on Sunday but that was all peyton. Yep I make excuses when I criticize Bardy for his poor performances unlike you who gives all the credit to peyton when they win and all the balme to everyone but peyton when they lose. If he had gotten the first down on that 2nd or 3rd and 2 and he missed a 41 yarder he would have done a better job but he still was horrible that game and cost his team the game. you can boil it down to a kick but the only reason they were in the game was b/c the officials wanted Indy to win which is why they overturned that obvious INT. Indy CAN run the ball, they choose to pass, SD has an old LT, NO has a very effective running game. It's not just about INts, it's about when and where they are being made. I shouldn't have to explain this to you but keep making your weak excuses. Brady did benefit from a defensive TD, whose fault was that? it must have been the Colts WR's fault that manning threw that INT. The '07 title game was never in jeopardy. They put up a whopping 14 pts in the SB which was 11 more than an offense nearly as great for Indy in 2004 put up in their playoff loss. It amazes me how you can criticize Brady for leading his O to an 80 yd TD drive to take the lead late yet absolve manning for leading his nearly as high powered O(probably more as Brady and NE ran up the score in many games that year) to just 3 points in their playoff loss. Do you not see this?
and all you are good at is creating poor arguments so, as always, your last assertion is hypocritical because if the criteria for this discussion is to know what you are talking about, you shouldn't only be on the sideline you should be in the parking lot across the street. One of the most basic rules of logic and debate is that the more you have to narrow your criteria, the worse your argument is. Conversely, the broader the boundaries of the argument, the more logical. Your entire argument is dependent on narrowing the criteria to playoff performance. That?s a ridiculous criteria because a QB?s entire career is comprised mostly of regular season games. Every year they play 16 games barring injuries. At the most, if starting as a wild card, you play 4 games in the playoffs if you make the Super Bowl ? that?s less than a quarter of comparable games. Not to mention the majority of seasons QB?s simply do not accomplish this, Brady has done it less than half his time in the league, so it is illogical to take a small percentage of games and say their weight is more important to the overall proven ability of a QB which comprises far more regular season games. that?s ludicrous, illogical and rather unintelligent. You would see this if you possessed either logic or intelligence. All you have done is shown who the better playoff QB is, not the better QB overall. Sure, playoff success may be used to determine a QB?s success overall, but it doesn?t reflect their ability overall. And that is the discussion, who is the better QB, as in ability, not just playoff success. The mere fact that you are attempting to take a narrow criteria and then apply it broadly where it doesn?t apply is just beyond ludicrous and I pity anyone not bright enough to not only grasp but identify such a glaring flaw. Now stop sneaking into the stadium and get back to the hot dog stand outside where you belong and let reasonable and intelligent people discuss the topic. You can?t hang.
How many screen passes did Garcon make then turned it up field for 15 yds. Please?. I?ve said plenty of times that Peyton has struggled. I?ve pointed out that it hasn?t been all him just like I point out that?s it?s not all Brady. I can go over that game w/ you all you want. He was under intense amount of pressure. He didn?t play great. Got his kicker in range for a game tying FG that the kicker missed. I never said Peyton played a great game. Indy has 3.5 ypc. They Can NOT run the ball. SD has a young Darren Sproles and could still only get 3.3 YPC. These running games aren?t facing 8 & 9 man fronts because of the passing game. Please go over the 13 INTs Bledsoe threw in 2000 and explain why they are all bad and then explain why Brady?s 12 INTs were all okay. You have the weak excuses. It?s laughable that you think the running game in 2001 was because of Brady. Even w/ the pick-6 Manning threw and all the great field position he got in the 2nd half Brady STILL couldn?t pull out a W. No matter how many times you say it, the 2007 AFCCG was still in doubt. Brady got lucky SD didn?t punch it into the EZ I don?t absolve Manning for his postseason issues. It hasn?t been all about him though just like the Pats wins haven?t all been about Brady.
If you would ever pay attention to these arguments you would note that i said where the players seperate is in postseason. When I judge QBs I take many factors into account- reg season performance, talent around them, performance in big reg season games, performance in january, whether they make plays when their teams need them most,... Peyton is obviously one of the greatest of all time, where he gets knocked down a peg or 2 in my opinion is the way he has consistently comes up small in big games. The 2 QBs have both had SB caliber talent around them for most of their careers. They both win at an amazing rate in the reg season but that drops down dramatically for peyton in postseason while it goes up for Brady. It's not a coincidence. He is changing that impression of him w/ games like last Sunday. if he does that a little more he'll climb up to Brady and the other top 5 type QBs but he's not there yet and instead of attacking me if you would just pay attention you would learn something so maybe someday even you could know what you are talking about.
I got what you said, but your argument simply doesn't work because all you keep coming back to is Post Season success and failures as your defining element of your argument, and you can't expand that narrow criteria to the broad concept of better overall QB. I don't think anyone reasonable would ever argue that Brady has been better in the playoffs.
It doesn't have to be a screen pass, it can be a 5-10 yd pass where the receiver breaks tackles and makes guys miss. I saw it a hundred times last Sunday. If Brady did that you'd find ways to give credit to everyone but him. But you have said SB XLII was all on Brady and I have never seen you say Peyton was at fault for any of their playoff losses. Indy can run the ball, they choose not to. I think we saw that on Sunday. I'd like to see you go over the INts first and then explain why the moment Brady stepped on the field NE became such a different team and why he had very little to do w/ that. I never said the running game in '01 was b/c of Brady but the threat of the passing game clearly opened things up a bit. What is funny is you act like he had Marshall Faulk or Edgerrin james in 2001 to rely upon. He led his offense to 27 pts, the highest amount of points Peyton ever led his O in a playoff loss was 24 points and of course he threw 2 killer RZ INts in that 4 pt loss. N24 N25 N28 I48 N20 N18 I21(TD) N27 N43(FG) N46(FG) N40 N21 Only 2 possessions where he got the ball w/ great FP did he not lead his O to points. The 2007 title game was never in doubt. -His first INT set up an SD FG, SD up 3-0. -he led NE on TD drive, NE up 7-3 -SD drives for FG, 7-6 NE 9 mins left in 1st half -INT sets up NE TD, 14-6 w/ 4 1/2 to play -SD drives for FG, 14-9 NE at half -Brady picked off, SD gets FG. 14-12 NE, undre 9 left in 3rd qtr, this is where you could turn the game off -Brady pulls Manning and throws INT at SD 2. -D holds, Brady leads NE to 67 yd TD drie for 21-12 lead w/ 12 mins left in game. SD never gets closer. The game was never in doubt. Over and over I have said the losses aren't all on Manning and the wins aren't all b/c of Brady but Manning is the biggest culprit in the losses and Brady the biggest reason for the NE dynasty.
