Agreed. Also, think of how much worse our OL would have been without AVT. Who would have been playing LG, Feeney? Zach would be in a body cast (if not a body bag) by now. JD did the right thing to protect his rookie QB.
Particularly when you're looking for an OG to protect your rookie QBs blind side. Staying put and taking some lesser OG in the 2nd or 3rd round, could have gotten Zach killed.
I'm not sure that's the lesson to be taken from Dallas. They are actually better at their skill positions than they are at their lines at this point. In general the further a position is away from the ball the higher its average WAR is. That applies to both offense and defense.
Zach has mainly been under assault this year due to GVR, a guy we probably could've upgraded had we kept the AVT picks.
I respectfully disagree in this instance. Normally, I wouldn't even advocate for taking an OG that high, much less trading up for one (as you know I don't like trading up in general), but this was a particular situation with a HUGE need. Since he was unable to sign Thuney in FA, JD was looking to protect Zach's blind side with the best LG he could get. Period. Nothing else should have mattered. The trade was the right move, and I'd advocate for doing it in that situation 10 times out of 10. Now, if it wasn't about protecting Zach's blind side, then I'd tend to agree with you that making such a trade is ill-advised unless one is moving up for an LT, Edge, QB, or maybe stud WR or CB. The last paragraph is a poor analogy imo in that it really doesn't fit this situation.
Yes, but if we didn't have AVT, Zach could have been under assault from both OG positions, and likely the C position as well if both OGs were bad.
I think it's tempting to get Linderbaum and then Kenyon Green if he's there with our other 1st. It would seem excessive, but having that many all pro caliber olineman would mask a world of other deficiencies. I've seen both play and they are special special talents. Green has played every position on the oline, he's physically gifted and a brilliant young player. Linderbaum is a generational center. I think if you pull off a bold move like this--you are creating a young version of what we had when Rex was here. We would need to have both firsts in the top 12 to have a shot at pulling it off. My second preference, as I mentioned earlier, is doing a pass rusher and Olineman. If I was a betting man--I would put money on that scenario. Knowing Saleh and Douglas, I don't see us going skill position with any first rounder, I don't see a secondary guy either...they seem ok with developing later round talent there. Maybe an elite TE? But there's really no Pitts this year. So, as you start playing process of elimination--that's how I arrived at that.
Before we draft JD has to sign a RG FA. Either a solid veteran starter like Scherff or an upgrade over GVR that can play if they do not draft anyone. But drafting Linderbaum offers two options. Moving McGovern to guard where he has played before or cutting McGovern if we sign a big name FA RG. Either way we do it replacing GVR sounds exciting, drafting a highly touted center prospect like Linderbaum is also exciting. With hopefull improvements the rest of the year by Zach, by the OL, by the WRs and then upgrading the OL and TEs next off season really should give us a chance to have a real offense next year. Right now there do not seem to be many big time holes to fill next off season other than OL, TE and safety. With 10 draft picks and a huge supply of cash this team could be set for a big jump.
The AVT trade got deluded by more trade downs but what we eventually got was Jason Pinnock at pick 175. So we swapped pick 86 for pick 175 (Pinnock) and pick 207 (Jonathon Marshall). If we didn't trade up for AVT we would've likely taken Landon Dickerson and the Raiders would have taken AVT. Your too interested in trashing Darrisaw to justify the trade. He's missed all camp and most of this season and in his first start he played 86 snaps and allowed zero pressures - against the Panthers. AVT's first start was also against the Panthers. How'd that go. Lets wait until the end of the year before we draw conclusions.
I think there's a zero chance that JD would take both Linderbaum and Green. This is one place where we don't agree on building a team. That would be 4 first round picks on the OL, and that's just too many, especially both OGs. At most I think an OL can only afford 3 - 1st round picks (LT, C and RT), and even that is stretching it. You want continuity on your OL for as long as possible. That would give us 3 years with that as our OL (and still need an upgrade at RT), and then we'd have to let AVT or one of Green or Linderbaum walk, maybe a couple of them as Zach will need a new contract, as will other of our young players. One doesn't need to have 3 or more 1st round picks on the OL to have a great OL. I think it's much more likely that JD does take an Edge and either Linderbaum or a RT with our two 1st round picks. He could easily decide to add a young OT to have a bookend set of tackles, and keep McGovern at C. I think he'll look to sign a RG in FA and maybe draft one in the 2nd or 3rd round if he doesn't think Cam Clark can compete for the job. While there may not be a Pitts in this year's draft, there are a couple of highly-rated TEs whom he could consider taking with Seattle's pick or after trading down some. I can see JD trading down at least once, maybe twice in the 2022 draft. He could trade down from Seattle's pick to the lower part of the 1st round or possibly even trade if for a 2nd and 3rd this year and a 2nd or 3rd in 2023. I could also see him trading down from one of our 2nd round picks and adding another 3rd round pick. It will be interesting.
It's not that we wouldn't have gotten an LG if we hadn't done the AVT trade, it's that we would've likely gotten a comparable LG along with an RG or two. Had we drafted 3 OL instead of just AVT it's highly likely at least one of them would've been as good as AVT and it's fairly likely we'd have gotten 2 starters. There's also the off chance that all 3 would've turned out good in which case our OL problems would've been completely solved in one draft. Eliminating the weakest point of an OL does more for the overall effectiveness of the line than maximizing the number of elite players on the line. It's about having no glaring weaknesses, not all pros at every spot. Moving up from 23 to 14 isn't worth the 66th and 86th overall picks, it just isn't.
right so the jets take a lesser guard and potentially get Zach killed from his blindside. Gotcha. playing the what if scenario is a bit weird to me but I’ll rather have AVT.
This is the key point. An average/OK guy can be found in free agency. Even if we get a serviceable guy in the 3d round, guys like that are at the end of the day replaceable. If AVT keeps doing what he is doing, there is no way we can get a guy like that in free agency. And even if we do, it will cost a fortune. We don't know yet what AVT will be, but in the last two weeks are any indication, this trade worked out for us very well.
Amazing isn't it: Darrisaw, Dickerson, Jenkins. All of them injured, with Darrisaw coming back last week and ranked 44th Tackle. Darrisaw also injury prone in College. All of these guys are 1st round/early second choices. Yet, we end with AVT, who played every game, and ranked #14 at the position, including #1 for last two weeks. How is this bad? If we do not trade, most likely we end with Jenkins in second round and (if you believe Saleh) Moore in the first. Jenkins is a better fit for LG than Dickerson, and JD apparently likes McGovern (who by the way played great last few weeks too) at C. How would that work out? Also, nothing against Darrisaw, but we already have LT in Becton (also sadly injury prone), who is better than him.
How is it highly likely that one of those three would be as good as AVT? Sorry, but I couldn't possibly disagree more. AVT is rated as the #5 OG in the NFL right now or something like that. There's no way that any of the other OGs available in the 2021 draft would be playing as well as AVT. I agree that most of the time it's more important to eliminate the weakest spot on the OL and that one doesn't need All Pros at every spot, but we needed to make sure that we had someone who could start immediately and play at a pretty high level, the chances of doing that after AVT were slim and none in this draft. If we had taken Jenkins, he wouldn't have even played. Aaron Banks is already being looked at as potentially being a bust. I think I remember seeing that a couple of the other higher-rated OGs aren't even playing yet or are playing poorly as well. I think the only OG from this draft besides AVT who is playing well, is Kendrick Green, and he went in the 3rd round. So who are those OGs that would have been upgrades at both OG spots. One has to look at the specifics of the draft and one's needs and can't just make generalizations, even if that generalization may have been right in many, if not most circumstances, it wasn't this year. Also, you don't know that we would have gotten even one OG, much less two, if we hadn't taken AVT. OLs across the NFL are suffering/struggling. Even if an OG or two were available at our picks in the 2nd or 3rd rounds, there are no guarantees that they would have been seen as a fit for our blocking scheme, or they may have had character issues or not loved football and JD wouldn't have drafted them. Where would we be then?
The difference in production between an OL taken 14th or 23rd is usually negligible. We also could've drafted two additional OL with the traded picks. There's a high likelihood at least one of them would've been good and thus an upgrade over GVR. And again, GVR is responsible for the vast majority of pressures our OL has allowed this year.
Which Rookie OLmen are rated higher than AVT? I am not sure there are many, if any at all. Also keep in mind: the difference between AVT and Jenkins, who would more than likely be out choice since he is next best G, is ENORMOUS. We would have literally had 0 production if we went with next best G. Instead we have the best rookie G production in NFL, good enough for top 15 overall in NFL and #1 overall over last 2 weeks. This trade helped us avoid a disaster.
Drafting AVT alone made the Jamal deal worth it. Best thing is we still have another 1st rounder coming which as of today is the 10th overall pick....
