Offensive Line

Yea I'm just really confused as to how one person is seeing this so differently than everyone else. You put that scenario in front of 10 unbiased football fans, analysts, coaches, players, etc. and every one of them would have the same read on it.

 

Well, BA, you called the guy's play like dogshit, so my response to challenge was completely appropriate. As far as saying he stepped up only in the 4th, have you watched the 3d quarter? He scored a TD, and 3d Q was finished with us in the FG range due to his passing. We were on the 30 yard line when the 4th started, and scored a minute later from that spot. He basically got us 10 points in the 3d. The 3d Q wasn't bad at all. And yes, in that 3d quarter they called a run on 3d and 6 by Davis, which was easily stuffed. There were more plays like that where I felt they should have passed but run play was called, hence the shackles reference. That prevent defense was on the play in the early 4th when it was like 3d and 24 and we were already in FG range. That was a smart play by the defense. I think both 3d and 4th Q performance by Fields was good, including two TD passes against blitz (one downgraded by the refs to a FG), one TD run, another FG (earned by the offense in the 3d, but kicked in the 4th).

In the 1st half I have to see all 22, because it feels like he left some meat on the bone. It's hard to tell without all 22. But still, he led into the FG range twice, and one should have been a TD by Allen, where previously Fields had a 20 yard run, but Allen fumbled as he crossed the goal line. We could have easily had 13 in the first half. Also, he didn't miss too many passes. Yes, one was wobbly, but still good enough to catch and also I recall a drop by Mason or Ruckert where the ball hit him in the chest. Still I am not saying 1st half was good. But overall when you factor 3d and 4th (not just 4th), I thought he was fine.

Let's see when the footage comes out, but as of right now if you guys think this was dogshit performance, we will need to disagree which one of our takes is garbage.

 

This is like the fifth time in this thread alone you've done this. I have no desire to talk about it any more if you're going to pretend I said this performance was dogshit. I said he's a dogshit QB, which he is. He has good games like he did last night but that doesn't negate the fact that he can't process the field or throw which alters the entire offense. He also has games where calling the performance dogshit is extremely valid.

No one is saying anything about Fields that hasn't been proven true for four years many times. There's a reason he was dumped by two teams, there's a reason he's a bridge QB that will probably never start (on purpose) again after he's replaced here. He's a bad QB. Looking at box scores int he 4th quarter of a game where we were down by 14 and getting wow'd by flashy runs is how teams as stupid as ours get duped into thinking he can be a QB. Most people figured it out, the Jets (and one fan) haven't. This is not a groundbreaking opinion, this is the consensus opinion.

 

I’m curious as to who exactly they are arguing with who said Fields played well.

 

My apologies for missing this nuance. Still, I think he is top 20, which is better than what we usually have. Will he be more? I haven't lost hope just yet.

And even if not, if AG had similar defense to Saleh, we could win some games with Fields. We could have easily been 2-2 right now if the defense was similar to what Bob had.

 

Not sure I understand the point of saying he’s top 20…that kinda sounds like it’s a good thing but it really isn’t. He is not a top 10 QB in this league for sure, so that puts him in the mid tier somewhere between like 11 and 20. Going a step further, I don’t think he’s top 15 in this league either. I’d say he’s bottom third so I guess saying “top 20” maybe gets there?

Whatever the nuance, I think he’s a below average QB, I’ve seen nothing to convince me that he will improve much…love his dazzling runs and that makes up for a lot, but throwing the ball into soft zone coverage in the 4th quarter when he had like 65 yards going into that 4th quarter doesn’t get me excited at all. And I don’t care what the stat line shows, he sucks.

I would be looking to replace him as soon as I could, which for us, is next years draft. Two other teams felt the same way.

All that being said, I do agree that had the rest of the idiots on this team not fucked up as bad as they did with the fumbles and penalties and stupid kick return decisions, we could easily be 2-2 right now. So in a way, sure I guess you can say that “hey, we can win with him” in a way, but the only way that happens is that the rest of the team has to play mistake free football and not fuck up, which clearly we can’t do by a country mile.

I don’t really think he’s much better than what we usually have, I think he’s pretty much right in line with what we’ve had outside of that one year with Fitzmagic…he struggles to complete passes and makes it look so fucking hard on offense…I watch other teams complete passes left and right, always seems to be a guy open…not us.

I also don’t understand at all why you haven’t lost hope yet. Personally, I never really had such hope for him, but what can you possibly be seeing that makes you have hope? He is not a good QB. He has played pretty much like he’s always played. Erratic with some crazy great runs and a few passes where he rips into tight coverage…but for the most part, he struggles to run a smooth passing game. That hasn’t changed in 4 years.

Sorry, I just don’t get it

 

Tagging in @Borat now that the film is here. Using this video, we can decipher how many times Fields faced a blitz on the three possessions where he picked up more than 2/3 of his yardage on the night (click "watch on Youtube" and it will load):



3Q
1:24 - Dolphins rush 4, Fields complete to Wilson for 18 yards
:51 - Dolphins rush 5, Fields complete to Taylor for 27 yards
:05 - Dolphins rush 4, Fields complete to Wilson for a TD, negated by bullshit penalty (used Twitter video for this, included it because it was a great play)

4Q
10:07 - Dolphins rush 4, Fields complete to Taylor for 9 yards
*ONE PASS MISSING FROM VIDEO*
7:57 - Dolphins rush 4, Fields complete to Wilson for 5 yards
3:26 - Dolphins rush 4, Fields checks down to Hall for 8 yards
2:33 - Dolphins rush 4, Fields checks down to Davis for 14 yards
2:11 - Dolphins rush 4, Fields checks down to Ruckert for 12 yards
1:49 - Dolphins rush 5, Fields 27 yard TD to Wilson

So in summary... Fields faced more than 4 rushers twice total during that entire time span, maybe three times but we don't have video. Multiple times he checked down in front of the defense who dropped 7 and played the line to gain. Outside of one albeit great throw to Wilson, he picked up most of his yardage against a standard 4 man front and some of them came on check downs with YAC. Basically what the tape tells us is exactly what most people already knew: the Dolphins stopped blitzing and were more than willing to give up yardage underneath like basically any team does when they are up 14 halfway through the fourth quarter.

Hopefully that puts an end to the box score stargazing.

 

Since Fitz, We have had likes of Geno, Zach, Boyle, Streveler, Siemien, White, Petty, Falk, Flacco, McCown, Sam, Rodgers play for us. Most of these guys were ranked #32 in QB Ratings/QBR, sometimes by a wide margin. Sam never got a chance since he didn't have a team around him, but still, Fields is playing better than almost all of these these guys were for us.

What gives me hope is that Sam, Geno (and Baker too) ultimately did get better. I want to see more if Fields can do it. So far he played in 3 games and I don't think overall he was bad. I want to see more. It would be nice to have a good coaching and better defense around him, and WR2 as well.

 

Not sure what case you were trying to make here, but Fields looks really good here for the most part, both in the few cases of blitz and 4 men rush too. Notices the blitz at the end of the 3d where they got burned for 27 yards. So fine they blitzed less , but I do not see prevent defense in these highlights except on 3d and very long at the start of 4th. Rushing 4 does not mean prevent defense.

Also, in all fairness, Fields scored 14 points in the 3d quarter alone if not for the bullshit penalty. Which is another point I was making to @Jets79, it wasn't just in the 4th that he picked up, he had a great 3d quarter too, basically a really good second half. First half was not great, but overall I still say this was a solid/fine performance good enough to win if not for some back breaking mistakes by Allen and defense plus refs. That 4th down and 5 from 36 yards line should have been 3 points too in the 1st half.

 

In case anyone asks, this would be a great trivia question...

"Who is the New York Jet Offensive Line Coach?"

So far, mixed results trending downward.. OLine shaky in PassPro (picking up blitzes), decent in RunBlocking.

 

This has to be a joke right? I shouldnt have bothered getting into this discussion with you in the first place. Then I go through the effort to show you with evidence that my opinion was backed up with fact, and you’re gonna pretend you never said the Dolphins stopped blitzing? That’s rich.

Done playing your bullshit games. The obsession to protect Fields at all costs is weird.

 

This is getting ridiculous. You provide evidence that makes Fields actually look better - he had very good 3d and 4th quarter. That's half the game. This is not negated by the fact they played mostly base 4 men rush defense. I mean Bob did this all the time and the defense was good.

Or are we only counting his performance against the blitz? I am being objective here: second half was good, which you've just proven. 1st half - not so much. So overall, OK, decent. How is that "obsession"?

 

I think the point that was shown was that Fields padded his stats and “looked good” only after the Dolphins changed their defensive approach and played less aggressive (fewer blitzes) and conceded the underneath stuff (which Fields took) because they had a large lead against a shit offense and played soft…maybe not quite what we’d call a prevent D but just about pretty much a prevent D.

THAT’S why Fields ended up with good stats and somehow “looked good”. He did that because the defense was giving him that in exchange for not giving up huge plays deep.

You are holding onto this storyline that Fields played well. He didn’t. He sucked for most of the game, as proven by his damn paltry 65 yards passing going into the 4th quarter. In no world in today’s NFL can you say that’s good QB play. Sure, fumbles. Sure, penalties. But a QB with 65 yards passing after 3 quarters is NOT “playing well”.

I honestly don’t understand why you want to die on this “Fields is good” hill…I just don’t get it. He’s not. He’s not being helped by his teammates for sure, and with better play around him we’d maybe have won a game or two. OK sure. But he is not a guy you can consistently win with. Just like some other talk tracks I saw in other threads that wanted to take his 5 or 6 games with Pitt and extrapolate them to a 17 game season. It doesn’t work that way.

He’s not good. There’s like a tiny less than 5% chance that he’ll develop. Sad but true.

We will be looking to draft a QB next draft

 

It is absolutely getting ridiculous. Because I'm a Jets fan and I'm a glutton for punishment I'll entertain your crap some more.

Hmmm... why did I post a play by play breakdown to show that Fields "looking good" and his final stats were misleading...

Could it be the almost double-digit references over the course of about 14 hours to the box score, lack of recognition of what the defense was doing when he stuffed the stat sheets, and pretending two blitzes over three possessions means the Dolphins "didn't stop blitzing"? Or saying multiple times that we started picking up the blitz a lot better later in the game when the reality is they barely blitzed?

I feel like I can't make it any more clear... Fields was not a top three reason we lost last night. Maybe not top 5. But what we saw from him adds up with what we've seen from him since 2021. He has tons of time, he holds the ball, he makes the wrong read, and sometimes his legs bail him out. These are football things that the tape shows and has shown for years across multiple coordinators, teams and coaches. The lazy "well look at his stats" argument holds almost no weight, and I explained to you with video evidence why.

 

Yeah…really can’t make it much clearer than all this…

@Borat…man I am with you on so many posts and love your takes most of the time…but on this defense of Fields when all of the eye test and all of the evidence and all of the history shows exactly who he is I just don’t get it. I love the optimism, I love the hope that maybe he can finally get it like a couple of other ex-Jets did (Geno 10 years later, Sam 5 years and 3 teams later), and I guess hope is all we have at this point, and if you’re right then you will look like a genius.

But your arguments and defense of Fields just doesn’t hold water. He has not played well. He continues to hold the ball too long. He continues to misread the field. He continues to follow up a great accurate throw with like 2, 3, 4 really off target throws, he continues to fumble and take sacks, etc. He is doing what he’s done across 2 other teams over 3 or 4 years. He is who he is. A spectacular runner who can make highlight reel plays with his legs and occasionally a great throw, but he is not a consistent good QB. He struggles to move the ball consistently. He is basically Zach Wilson with much better legs.

It’s your defense of him that just doesn’t make sense…he did better when the Dolphins D let up. Just like Tyrod did better when the Bucs D let up in the 4th quarter. It’s the same exact story both games. When the D played to win, they bottled us up for 3 quarters. When the D laid off because they had a big lead and stopped blitzing and started playing soft zone, we took the underneath stuff that the D gave us and made a comeback attempt and both QB’s padded their stats.

That’s it…and one good quarter against a D that was laying off and giving up the underneath, while great for the completion rate and QBR, does not negate 3 quarters of sucky QB play.

Sure, he played “well enough” that if we hadn’t shot ourselves in the foot with the turnovers and penalties, we’d have been in the game, or maybe even pulled out a W, but that doesn’t mean he “played well”. He didn’t for 3 quarters. He took what the D gave for a quarter at the end and puffed the stat sheet. That’s it.

 

B,, the guy can not read D (like ZW) and the saving grace is he does run 15 yds back peddling .

 

Looking at the video @BroadwayAaron posted, and this is not complete, but here are all the drop backs we can see from there @Jets79 :

1Q
7:08 - 19 yard run to Phins 21 yard line.
There was just 3 drives in the 1Q, two by Phins and one long one by us where Allen fumbled before crossing end zone, which erased what should have been 7.

2Q -
7:18 - 3d and 8. 8 yards pass to Taylor for the 1st down on Phins 41 yard line. Taylor slips and falls down, but he was open and should have gotten a lot of YAC.
4:23 - 4th and 5 at 36. This should have been a 3 via FG, Big mistake by AG. Fields has less than a second before blitz gets there, almost immediately. I do not see anyone open in this window (this is not all 22 though), one of our guys falls down. Fields tries to escape to the right, but fumbles when tackled.
0:53 - 2nd and 3. Pass to Hall for 3 yards for 1st down.
0:23 - 3d and 7. Pass to GW for 12 yards for 1st down.
0:05 - 8 yard pass dropped by Taylor. Falk kick 3 via FG.

So, in the first half, where you said Fields played poorly he only had 3 possessions, one of which with only 53 secs left, and got into scoring range each time. Had 7 taken away by Allen's fumble, and should have kicked a 3 on 4th and 5, where he immediately got pressure and I did not see anyone open and fumbled. Obviously we do not have every drop back, but based on what we have was this really such terrible 1st half? If not for stupidity we would be walking away with 13 points on 3 possessions, one of which with only 53 secs left to work with. Not saying this was a good 1st half, but read above, is that terrible performance given the opportunities he had (or lack thereof)?

3Q

Should have the ball to start, but ST fumbles to Miami.
9:35 - 41 yard TD run - 7 points.
5:20 - 1st and 10 from own 35, 10 yards to Taylor.
3:26 - 3d and 6, this is not a drop back by Fields, but that's the run play by Davis I referenced where it should have been a pass.
After this I am using BA's account:"
1:24 - Dolphins rush 4, Fields complete to Wilson for 18 yards
:51 - Dolphins rush 5, Fields complete to Taylor for 27 yards
:05 - Dolphins rush 4, Fields complete to Wilson for a TD, negated by bullshit penalty (used Twitter video for this, included it because it was a great play)

4Q
10:07 - Dolphins rush 4, Fields complete to Taylor for 9 yards
*ONE PASS MISSING FROM VIDEO*
7:57 - Dolphins rush 4, Fields complete to Wilson for 5 yards
3:26 - Dolphins rush 4, Fields checks down to Hall for 8 yards
2:33 - Dolphins rush 4, Fields checks down to Davis for 14 yards
2:11 - Dolphins rush 4, Fields checks down to Ruckert for 12 yards
1:49 - Dolphins rush 5, Fields 27 yard TD to Wilson" <Fields runs 2pt conversion for 8>
There was also some 1st down runs by Fields.

Now, be objective, look at all this and tell me that Fields was not good relative to the opportunities he had, at least based on the film we have so far. Only two punts total. One after a stupid run on 3d and 6, and the other when they could not get 1st on 3d and 15, due to penalties, the possession they started on their own 5. No 3 and outs. So far I stand by my statement that Fields was solid in this game.

 

I get that, but we are talking about 3d quarter too where Fields scored 2 TDs (one cheated out of). Usually teams don't play soft in the 3d up by just two scores. Also look at the 1st half - he had just 3 possessions, heavy rushing attack, and also long possessions by Miami. And we got into the FG range twice and once more to endzone where Allen should have scored a TD. Punted just twice, on after penalties and starting inside 5, and the other on the run of 3d and 6.

Sure he could have done more, and i am not saying he was great, but read the analysis above of the video. This was not bad by him and the offense overall, not just 4th quarter, aside from the stupid mistakes like Allen's fumble, ref mistakes, and AG 4th and 5 call. I don't know, if you think this was not good, we will just agree to disagree.

 

Look, I have the same sentiment when it comes to you - very reasonable and great enjoyable takes. And you are probably right on Fields too, I am not saying a probability of success is high. I just want to give it a shot to see if he can be a Sam, a Geno or a Baker.

But I also want to be fair. When he had a great 1st game, I said it. When he had a shit second game, I said that too. But this game was not bad for him. You guys are saying Fields only padded stats because Miami let up. But he has two legitimate TD drives in the 3d quarter, not 4th. 3d quarter (one of the legitimate TDs was changed by refs to 3 points scored early 4th). In the 4th he added another TD and another FG on top of that.

In the 1st half he only had 3 drives, that's it. He led a TD drive, which Allen stupidly fumbled the moment he crossed. Got a 3 on another drive with 53 secs left. And AG called 4th and 5, he got blitzed and fumbled with no where to throw, when we should have had another 3. That's just 3 drives and we should have had 3 scores. I analyzed the video play by play and stand by my statement that Fields was not bad last game. i have no bias towards Fields at all. When he plays well I say it, when he stinks I say it, and he was solid I say it. Last night IMO was the later. If you read the play by play analysis of what was available and don't see it that way still, that's fine we can disagree there.