Here's the problem: the way the Patriots got the big players that have made them was by accumulating draft picks, so that they could move up or down a slot or two at will, and by signing free agents who fit the system that Belichik and Crennel and Weiss were implementing. Mike Vrabel was a damn big inside linebacker when they signed him as a free agent. They couldn't have done a lot of the things they did with their 3-4 without having a moose at one inside linebacker slot. They traded up one slot to get Ty Warren, because he was the size they were looking for in both a 4-3 DT and a 3-4 DE. They spent very little (pick 193) to make that tradeup and they got a 305 lb lineman who fit both of the fronts they used. The Jets on the other hand have traded future and present picks to acquire mediocre talent (Barlow, Ramsey) and to concentrate talent in a few positions (ILB and CB) at the expense of having enough depth overall, particularly on the lines. They have signed free agents who are not ideal in the New England system. Kenyon Coleman is just not big enough to be a dominant player in the system, even if he had the talent to star in the first place, which he does not. KVO never had the ability to play in the New England system as a defensive end, he was just not big enough. Until the Jets begin to do the things that created success in New England they're going to continue to fail at building that kind of defense. They need to build up some picks to give them easy cheap maneuverability in the draft, which will allow them to move up the slot or two necessary to get the particular player types they need to make things work. They need to sign free agents who can be dominant in the New England 3-4, meaning big fast players who love contact, or they need to stop trying to become New England. I really would prefer to see a Parcells/Cowher 3-4, with big fast linebackers backing up journeymen linemen to what Belichik has done and Mangini is trying to do. It's a lot easier to convert smaller defensive linemen to become 3-4 linebackers than it is to find consistently good 300+ lb 3-4 linemen.
They have also been big players in FA and that's the difference between an owner who is willing to spend money and one who isn't.
If they finish 1-15 or 2-14 i would have to think Mangini is out but then again who really knows with this team.
He's not going anywhere after this season. We are in year two of him installing his regime. I'm sure that when Woody hired him, he had a long term plan in place. As long as it looks like that plan is coming together, which I believe it is, then he will get another year. Personally, I give him 4 years to show a dominant team, but you have to give the guy at least 3 to show what he can do. Remember, the defense is starting over with the 3-4, and the offense is starting over with a new QB (thank goodness). Give it some time.
5-11, is a 500 team that had a couple bad breaks... Pre season, the consensus was for most (not me...) that without injury to Captain Checkdown, we'd be LUCKY to win 7.....so, you cant argue that with an injury to the main guy on that side of the ball, you should only be slightly worse. And thats the point I made, as long as Clemens looks like the real deal, there is no way a Head Coaching chage is made before two more full seasons play out
And just supposing, this year we can draft Okam and Shirley for NT, and pick up Suggs in FA.... Drob slides to end, Then at LB you have BT back on the right, Suggs on the left with Hobson and Harris in the middle.... Could be pretty stout...especially if both prospective Draft picks can play at a good level and be rotated to beat down a center over the course of a game..
Even assuming we find our big NT and at least one big DE to supplement the line we're going to be at the mercy of injuries at those positions because we're certainly not going to find two of each. One of the secrets of Parcell's and Cowher's success is that they stockpile a bunch of big linebackers for their 3-4's. They know that it's very hard to stockpile good 3-4 defensive linemen but that it's possible to stockpile good 3-4 linebackers. So both of them go out and get a 3-4 NT with another guy who can compete there and then stockpile journeymen 3-4 DE's. They use the value picks and free agent signings just on the NT and on linebackers, whom they both stockpile. Every time a linebacker leaves Pittsburgh in free agency there's another star waiting to step up because that's where the value is accumulated on the roster. Parcells does it a bit differently, signing ILB's as free agents and spending his value picks on OLB's, especially the pass-rushing ROLB. His mistake on the Jets was to keep Farrier at OLB when he was obviously more suited to an ILB position given his size and ability to take on blockers. Parcells had drafted Farrier high in the first round though and in his system that meant Farrier needed to be either ROLB (preferably) or LOLB. The Steelers had no draft impingement from him and when they signed him as a free agent they moved him inside where he belonged and a star was born.
I agree....thats kind of my point. We should be in a position to come away with at least one, if not two 6'5 320 lb guys to go in the middle.....Then you have Coleman,Ellis,Drob, and whoever else as ends...Mind you on Passing downs, Both NT's go on the field, and Ellis becomes an additional pass rusher (Imagine that...Thomas,Okam,Shirley Drob, Ellis, Suggs....on 3rd and long...) You would need 8 guys to block that 5. For LB's you have Bowens,Harris,Hobson,Thomas, Anyone else you keep, and Bring in Suggs.....
The Patriots have made plenty of moves that haven't worked out. Not every move they have made have been golden. It takes more than one or two offseasons to completely change the defense, especially considering the previous regime had invested so much money in our DL, with very little results.
The Pats have never been big players in FA until this year, and most of their FA's take less money to play for them because they figure they'll win another championship.
2007: Aug. 23: Traded: OG Pete Kendall to Redskins for conditional fifth-round pick in 2008 draft. Aug. 21: Traded: LB Jerry Mackey to Buccaneers for conditional draft pick. Apr 28: Traded: 1st(25),2nd(59), 5th(164) to Carolina for their 1st(14) and 6th(191). Traded their 2nd(63) and 3rd (89) and the 6th(191) to Green Bay for 2nd(47) and 7th (235) March 7: Traded: Second-round pick in 2007 draft (37th overall) to Bears for RB Thomas Jones and second-round pick in 2007 draft (63rd overall). 2006: Sept. 2: Traded: Draft pick to Raiders for DE Bobby Hamilton. Aug. 31: Traded: QB Brooks Bollinger to Vikings for DT C.J. Mosley and draft pick; TE Doug Jolley to Buccaneers for draft pick; draft pick to Cowboys for TE Sean Ryan. Aug. 21: Traded: Fourth-round pick in 2007 draft to 49ers for RB Kevan Barlow. Traded: Fifth-round pick (138th overall) to Dallas for fifth- and sixth-round picks (150th and 189th overall). Traded: Second-round pick (35th overall) to Redskins for second- and sixth-round picks (53rd and 189th overall) and second-round pick in 2007. Traded: Second-, sixth- and seventh-round picks (53rd, 189th and 211th overall) to Dallas for second-round pick (49th overall). Traded: Third-round pick (71st overall) to Philadelphia for third- and seventh-round picks (76th and 220th overall). In this mess the Jets gave up: 16 draft picks total and received back 17 draft picks. That is a positive total of one. ................ I will take wrong answers for 1000 Alex. :smile: They have proved very flexible actually. One draft(a very deep draft) they acquired a shit load of picks and the other draft ( a very weak draft) they gave up some picks (quality over quantity), some of which they acquired the prior year. Funny that seems the very definition of "maneuverable"................ Can not have it both ways man. Also about free agency. The Jets acquired the best 3-4 DE available. He was about the only option available for the D-line in a ridiculously weak free agent pool. I will admit they have not been nearly as successful at free agency as they have been in the draft. However teams are built through the draft and get the remaining spare parts, depth and maybe a major cog or 2 if they are lucky. They have proved to be very adept in the draft and flexible or excuse me show "maneuverabilty" as you say. You can not criticize them for doing the very thing you want them to do........... To sum up draft very good, free agency not so good..................
You missed the Patrick Ramsey trade for a 6th round pick. I have no questions that the Jets were generally on the right track in 2006, although the overall position was not wildly positive. In 2007 they went way off track in ways that will not help them compete with the kind of strategy the Patriots (and Colts) employ.
You are correct I did, sorry. In my infinite haste to be a smart ass I forgot that one. :smile: I guess we agree to disagree about the 07 draft. Free agency is another matter. I am not happy they do not bring in more players but I am happy they do not spend on meh talent although, save for Coleman, everyone they have brought in is beyond suck. I suppose that is a double edge sword. We shall see their game plan this year.
It is what it is. Players grumbling about various stuff, and not a bunch of happy campers on a 1-7 team.
Anybody that thinks Mangini is going to be fired for any reason at the end of this season is deluding themselves. Bring up Kotite and Groh and anybody else, and none of it matters. Mangini is not going to be fired.
That right he another BB. He'll suck here and go somewhere and be great doesn't that sound just like BB LOL
