It appears that all the teams with a possible need at RB are not interested in the 2008 version of Eddie George in Dallas and Earl Campbell in New Orleans.
The difference is a) I agree that Alexander is a bit overrated and b) I could back up my Steve Young argument while he hasn't shopwn any factual evidence to prove that it was all the OL. So then they thought Holmes wasn't good enough. he played 4 years in Baltimore and barely had 1 1,000 yd season. The rushing game didn't improve from the guys who ran the ball the 2 years prior to his 1,000 yd season. He had a few great seasons in KC but again had a great OL in KC. I am sure the loss of Hutch contributed to it BUT if Alexander was healthy he would have had a 1200 yd season and the passign game would have been better b/c of it. In 2004 they allowed 1 sack every 16 pass attemtps In 2005 they allowed 1 sack every 18 pass attempts In 2006 they allowed 1 sack every 10 pass attempts In 2007 they allowed 1 sack every 16 pass attempts What was the difference in those years? In 2005 they had a 3.6 YPC btw Alexander and Morris. It was the only year they didn't have the threat of a running game.
Listen one more time because I'm getting tired of repeating myself I NEVER EVER SAID IT WAS ALL THE OL!!!!!!!!!!!!! STOP putting words in my mouth! You want clean fair unagressive debates, but you have to resort to these kinds of tactics to make someones point look false, and I'm getting sick of it. You know what I said to you in our last back and forth and I'm getting close to repeating it here in regards to you twisting people's words, or flat out changing them entirely. You have shown ZERO factual evidence that he hasn't benefited from the OL. ZERO. Watching him run was enough for anyone to see that he was not nearly as good as Holmes or LT and not nearly as good as his stats would indicate. They thought he was plenty good enough that they wanted him back in 2000 and asked him not not to leave via restricted free agency. He left in 2001 via free agency. He was not cut or released. And he was a much better RB than Alexander was. That's pretty much where I would put Alexander if he ran behind a good line not the exceptional one he was afforded in Seattle. 1 sack every 10 passes is A LOT and affects the passing game. Like I said teams were NOT stacking the line to stop the run against the Seahawks.
I'm not using any tactics, you have said over and over again his OL was the reason he was so successful and w/o having anything top back it up you claim a guy like Holmes didn't benefit as much from playing behind an equally great, if not better, OL in KC. I know I haven't show anything but you telling us he was a product of the OL sure proved everything How about when you calimed he scored all his Tds on runs inside the 5 b/c the Ol was so dominant then I showed you his average TD run was greater than Holmes(by a wide margin) and LT. But I guess that's not backing anything up to you, just telling someone that he was a product of a great Ol- THAT'S proving your argument! He was cheap and would provide good depth, why wouldn't they have wanted him back? The proof was in the usaage. he had 137 carries while jamal had 309 and in the postseason jamal had 103 carries while Holmes had 18. In 2000 Tony Richardson(our current FB) averaged 4.7 YPC and gained about 700 yds behind that KC OL and the KC OL got even BETTER w/ the addition of brian Waters in 2001 when they got Priest. How in the World anyone can say Alexnader benefited more from his OL than priest did from his OL is beyond me. We'll never know. It is alot as no one worried about the Seattle running game b/c Alexander was playing hurt most of the year. It allowed them to worry about the pass O, last year the running game was better and needed to be respected and the sacks went down per pass attempt.
It's a tactic you have perfected. I want you to show a post where I said it was all the OL. Holmes Prior to going to KC: 1998 4.3 YPC 1,008 yds on 233 carries 1999 5.7 YPC 506 yds on 89 carries...got injured 2000 4.3 YPC 588 yds on 137 carries. He did it while running behind an OL that was not as good as the one he had in KC. Here you go again making stuff up. When did I say this? If you're just going to make stuff up and flat out lie then I'm not going to bother continuing this discussion with you. I never made this claim. So are you saying that Alexander is a better RB than LT because his TD runs average more? Is that YOUR argument. A TD yard average? That's not why they wanted him back. Billick really liked him but they felt he was going to be too injury prone to run the power offense. I have stated this repeatedly too. This would be a good statement to mkae if I said Priest didn't benefit at all form his OL. But, I have stated over and over again that Priest Holmes was the better RB and it wouldn't have mattered if he had an All Pro OL in front of him, he still would have been a productive back...as he was in Baltimore. Defenses did not stack the line against the run prior to 2006 because they worried about the passing game as an effective way they could have been beat. The passing game in 2007 was not beneficiary of the running game, it was quite the opposite. This is a very incorrect statement you are trying to make.
You haven't given Alexander any credit. Nah, it doesn't sound like you are giving his Ol all the credit:rofl: He had EIGHT NINE Carries in '99, I cannot take a YPC seriously w/ just 89 carries. The Ravens had an excellent OL in the late 90s-early 00s. Jamal Lewis had a better YPC than Holmes did in 2000 and he carried the ball 172 more times than Holmes. If you cannot remember what you wrote this week how can you remember what Alexander did in 2005? Instead of trying to attack me, attack the argument and you'll have a better chance. You complain about twisting words then you write that? I was PROVING A POINT about how he wasn't just a TD machine inside the 5. Injuries are part of the game so that doesn't help your argument. The bottom line is in 4 years he had ONE 1,000 yard season and it was barely a 1,000 yd season and they drafted his replacement less than 2 years after that season. But you cannot prove it. That is your opinion but you haven't provided any facts to back that up. he wasn't productive in Baltimore, he had 1 year as a feature back and he barely had 1,000 yds. he went to KC where their FB averaged almost 5 YPC the year before and gained about 700 yds and the KC OL got BETTER the yera they got him so how you can say Alexander benefited more than Priest from a great OL is beyond me. I'm sure the passing game helped out the running game too BUT it's interesting how good running game+good pasing game and less sacks for them and bad running game=lesser passing game and more sacks. Strange how that has worked out.hmy:
I have said that he was an 1100-1200 yd 8-10 TD back. Good backs put up those numbers. The Great backs put up 1600-1800 16-20+ TDs. Alexander put up those numbers but was not a great back. He was fortunate to have that OL. The Ravens only had one OL that made the Pro Bowl – Jonathan Ogden. Their OL unit was an average to above average OL. Not nearly as good as the one Alexander had that included two multiple All Pro selections...Walter Jones and Steve Hutchinson. In 89 carries he ran for over 500 yards. That’s VERY IMPRESSIVE! With an OL that was average to good...but not great. Where have I attacked you?!?! Please….stop….making….stuff….up… In neither of those two quotes do I say all of Alexander’s TD’s were inside the 5. That’s good. I have repeatedly mentioned his 27 TD season in 2005. Way to include his rookie season when he didn’t play. The following season he wasn’t the starter until after the 1st quarter of the season was over and on 233 carries passed the 1,000 yard mark. In 1999 he averaged 5.7 YPC before being injured In 2000 the Ravens made a decision that they though Holmes was to fragile to be an every down back in their power run offense so they decided to draft Jamal Lewis who was a much bigger and powerful running back. However they did not want to lose Priest Holmes so they asked him to stay instead of leaving as an RFA. You can twist that all you want, but those are the facts. He was productive in 1998 rushing for over 1,000 yards and didn’t even start the entire season and only carried the ball 233 times! He was VERY productive in 1999 before getting injured. Don’t forget to include…Losing Steve Hutchinson = significant drop in level of play for the OL = bad running game = lesser passing game and more sacks. Seems kinda funny you leave that part out. I am done with this conversation because you continue to twist words, and now you have accused me of attacking you which I have not. I do not have the time to continue to go over and over again with you the same things only to have you twist them around.
In 2001 when Steve Hutchinson was a rookie Shaun Alexander rushed for 1318 yds for an YPC of 4.3. In 2002 Hutchinson played in only 4 games Alexander rushed for 1175 for an YPC of 4.0. When Hutchinson came back in 2003, Alexander returned to form rushing for 1,435 for an YPC of 4.4. Hutchinson was voted to the All Pro team. In 2004, Alexander rushed for 1,696 yds for an YPC of 4.8. Hutchinson was voted to the All Pro team. In 2005 Alexander rushed for 1,880 for an YPC of 5.1. Hutchinson was again voted to the All Pro Team. I have made the claim that if Alexander ran behind an average to good OL he would have been an 1100 - 1200 yd guy that had 8-10 TDs. In 2002 without Hutchinson he rushed for 1175 yds…but did have 16 TDs. 4 of those were in one game before Hutchinson was injured. He had 124 yds 4 TDs rushing 1 TD receiving before Hutch was injured.
Don't post PB apps please. I know Hutch and Jones were/are great players but as good as Jones is/was he was never as good as Ogden and the ravens had a damn good OL. W/ only 89 carries 1 big run could mean the difference in that huge YPC. it's very different than haveing 300 carries. Must I prove it AGAIN???? You are busy complaining I am making stuff up but each time I prove what you said. Just stick to the discussion. Excuses, excuses. Take away his rookie year and he still barely had a 1,000 yd season in the other 3 seasons w/ Baltimore. I have notcied you are ignoring the fact that Tony Richardson averaged almost 5 YPC the year before priest got to KC w/ a worse OL than priest played w/. Why do you keep ignoring that? Obviously that didn't help either but a healthjy Alexander still would have been around 4 YPC and not 3.5. There's one little problem w/ this theory. Hutchinson started games 1-4 in 2002, in those games Alexander rushed 68 times for 249 yards w/ a 3.7 YPC. The rest of the year w/o him he rushed 227 times for 926 yds and a 4.1 YPC. he had the one big game against Minny in the game Hutch got hurt(I don't know if he got hurt early or late) but his first 3 games he ran behind Hutch for a total of 44 carries for 110 yards on 2.5 YPC.
I'm done with you so the rest of the conversation is over, but if you want people to stop complaining about you twisting words and making stuff up then stop twisting words and making stuff up. I have not attacked you
I don't know who this helps because I have not read everything you guys have been complaining about. To me, Holmes was the better goalline back because he excelled at jumping over piles at the line of scrimmage. Marcus Allen, Walter Payton, LaDainian Tomlinson, Jamal Lewis, and Johnny Hector were also very good at this skill. Harvey Williams had a few TDs in the same manner. Those 1-yard TD runs would hurt Holmes if one was to sort out his touchdowns by average yardage. Of course, Alexander also scored quite a few times from the 1-yard line. You'd also want to look at success rate. How many times did Alexander get a carry at the 1-yard line and not score? How many times was Holmes not successful from the 1? My guess is that Holmes had a better success rate from the 1 because he had that great leaping ability.
I never said it was all the OL. And I never said all of his TDs were from within the 5. You weren't being truthful with your comments. That's called lying where I come from.
I posted the info, you started twisting your own words. I didn't lie about anything. Again, instead of attacking me attack the arguments(yes calling me a liar is attacking me especially when I have not lied about anything).
You haven't been acting very strange lately and I have no idea why. Can you not read these posts and see where you called me a liar and see where I proved to you I didn't lie? You have been in attack mode the last couple of arguments we've had.
If you look back at our last two discussions you will see that when you twist my words around that's when I got upset. Yes. You know I enjoy what you bring here, and I have met you and thought very highly of you after meeting you. Furthermore, I don't enjoy arguing with you. You make the claim I said Alexander's success was All the OL. Here are my quotes This comment fits with all of my other arguments. It doesn't say his success was ALL the OL, but it says that if it weren't for those two (and really the entire OL) he wouldn't have put up those insane numbers. Those numbers are why people think he was great. I do not believe he was a great RB...A good-very good one, but not elite. This has been something I have said all along. He doesn't put up 1800 yds and 27 TDs if he's not playing behind Hutch and Walter Jones. I give Alexander some of the credit here. I should have been more clear however. I thought Alexander was a good runner (better than decent) but no where near his insane numbers. I try to explain myself a little here that I wasn't trying to insinuate that he was a bad player. You would be hard pressed to find anyone who would say that Alexander was bruiser who wore defenses down. I emphasized could have. I do think Alexander was a better RB than Adrian Murrell, but I was making my point that I didn't think Alexander was anything better than just good. Not a great RB though. And I think many people would agree with me on this statement. Without those guys 1600+ yds 20+ TDs would not have been the norm for SA. I have actually said I thought he would have been an 1100-1200 yd type RB which would clasify as him being a very good RB. In fact the year Hutchinson got hurt and was out for 3/4 of the season Alexander only rushed for 1175 yds. In 2003 when he came back Alexander rushed for 1400+ You make the claim that I said all he scored were TDs inside the 5 I didn't make that claim here. I did say once Seattle got inside the 10 they ran the ball a lot. Kind of like the Pats last year when they got inside the 10 they still threw the ball and that's part of the reason Brady threw 50 TDs. But I did not say all of his TDs were from inside the 5 as you continue to claim I did. Alexander is going to end up in the HOF. Or at least he should end up there. But I still think he was overrated, and really benefited from the OL. He still would have put up good numbers if he had played elsewhere, but not the numbers that he had with Seattle.
Obviously I have always enjoyed discussing football w/ you and I think you are an excellent poster but you don't have to take every word so literal. You gave his OL most of the credit and claimed he got more helpt han other RBs which is very difficult to prove. That comment alone sure looks like you are giving the Ol pretty much all the credit. obviosuly you can't stick a bad player behind a great Ol and expect to have success but you think he was an avearge player elevated to to much better than that w/ the OL. I agree he's overrated a bit but I disagree he was an average player. Emmitt wouldn't be the all-time rushing leader w/o his OL, Curtis wouldn't be top 5 in rush yds. Great RBs need good OLs. A great Ol will always make a good RB better. I posted your quote. That's not something to knock, it's alot harder scoring from the 10 than it is the 20 or 30 b/c there's alot less space. That's a credit to those teams, to Alexander and his OL and to Brady and his offense.
