Explosiveness is being able to score whenever you touch the football... Curtis Martin was never a particularly explosive player... Dominating is being the one player who the other team needs to game plan for... Curtis was that player until his final game...
Some of your arguments based on stats were off, so I had to comment on them. But if this is a man crush situation here, then I understand.
Actually none of my arguments were based on stats....you are the one that brought stats to the table. I still feel McNeil was a more talented running back based on observation, which can be attributed to man crush. Although I'm sure many fans will agree with my observation regardless of stats.
And I think Leon Washington is a more talented back than was Curtis Martin... But in order to become an all-time great, you need more than just talent. You need to take advantage of the opportunities you are given, you need to consistently produce, and you need to compile accomplishments over a period of time.... Players are not great based on talent. They are great based on accomplishments.... Accomplishments and longevity usually go hand-in-hand... Here and there, you will have a guy who becomes an all-time great by piling up many accomplishments in a short period of time (Terrell Davis comes to mind) but that is very, very rare...
I brought stats to the table because much of what you wrote could be refuted by statistics (such as the myth that Martin wasn't a threat to break a long run, whereas McNeil was). Based on pure talent, McNeil has the edge, for what that is worth. Hell, he should have had more talent. He was the 3rd overall pick in the 1981 draft. Martin was the 74th pick in the 1995 draft.
We are talking about history though. A player that represents history. And Leon Washington isn't more talented than CMart...if he were he'd be starting. I love CMart because he donned green and white for many years and was great for the franchise. I am honest enough to say that I don't think he was the best running back in the league for any extended period of time. He was simply consistently good year in and year out. And that does count for something. Do I think it will have an effect on his first year of Hall of Fame eligibility? No I don't. I think the voters are diverse enough to look for a player that not only was consistent, but changed the course of the game as it was played. Both he and Marshall Faulk retired the same year. Who made a bigger impact to the game? That's not say both won't be elected the same year, but Faulk was a game changer, while Martin was the safer more consistent player. That's the only point I'm trying to make.
I was simply pointing out that my argument was not based on statistics, which you claimed I was using incorrectly. Also Martin broke the long run once a year.....once.
Now you are going in circles here. You did mention stats earlier in the thread and then you came with the myth that McNeil was a breakaway runner, whereas Martin was not such a runner. I then posted stats that would prove the myth wrong. http://forums.theganggreen.com/showpost.php?p=848212&postcount=74
I'm not going in circles. If we are going strickly by statistics McNeil's 4.5 yds/carry is far superior to Martin's 4.0. The fact that Martin had a longer single run during the season and had lower yd/carry for an entire season let alone a career shows that on average McNeil broke a greater run. Your post only supports the fact that Martin has a single longer run each season. If Martin has a single 60 yd run, but McNeil ran 4 40 yd runs, would you still agree that Martin was more explosive?
By the way, Part 1 I am fairly certain McNeil is the only RB in NFL history to play 12 or more years and average at least 4.0 yards per carry in every season. By the way, Part 2 Pre-knee injury Emerson Boozer was the most explosive RB in Jets history.
this isnt even a question. curtis martin wayne chrebet wasnt even the best wr on the jets most of the years he played. he was a gritty possesion receiver who everyone decided to fall in love with cause he was the local boy from hofstra who was never looked at as a pro and had a decent career. chrebet is so completely overrated for what he truly was on the field by most on this site.
They should both have their jerseys retired. Numbers have nothing to do with retiring jerseys, what they meant to the team overall is what's important. The Hall of Fame is for numbers. Retired jerseys represent the relationship between that player and the team, the community, the fans, etc.
It pains me to have to agree with you on this. Cotchery stayed on the bench two years too long for the Chrebet love in Giants stadium. The sad thing is he would have been fighting for the third or fourth spot on most teams in the Nfl a large part of his carer. But we in Jet land love to overrate mediocre players because our team has not won in so long.
I absolutely agree with FOURTHANDLONG on this one. Wayne Chrebet was my favorite player for so many years. But Curtis Martin is the best Jet in history (including Namath). Martin was the definition of a workhorse back. He didn't break the huge gains but he never got stopped for a loss. He had that incredibly cut-back move that always seemed to buy him at least 3 yards. He never fumbled. He carried the load for over 1,000 yards, what, 10 times? He's the fourth leading rusher in NFL history. If that's not deserving of a retired jersey, I don't know what is.
I think you're correct, but with the benefit of roundoff error, since he actually averaged 3.95 yards per carry his final year; one fewer yard and he would have rounded off to 3.9. Joe Perry also did it for the first 12 years of his career, but unlike McNeil he then played a few more years in limited action. Of course, Jim Brown and Barry Sanders did it every year of their careers, but chose to retire short of 12 years while still being the best RBs in the league.
All well and good but Martin is the most obvious and clear choice when taking the following perspective: Martin was the best running back the Jets have ever had while Chrebet, although an excellent player, could never be considered the best WR in Jets' history.
I agree with this because it is truly an unfair question because they both provided great memories for JETS fans for numerous years. My favorite quote from any commentary is still: "Wayne Cherbet, he probably drops a ball once every three years." I don't remember who said it or what game it was because I was younger, but that was one of the best lines I've ever heard.
A true and objective evaluation of talent can only be measured in terms of actual results. The fact that Martin was on the slower end of the speed spectrum for NFL running backs only adds to my perception of his talent. His strength, durability, toughness and reliability further add to this perception. While Freeman had elements to his game that could be characterized as superior to Curtis', there were an equal or greater number of traits/talents that Martin had that put him head and shoulders above McNeil whose so called 4.5 rushing average over 12 years is less meaningful when you consider how many games he missed. Its easier to maintain a higher YPC when you have half the carries over the roughly the same period of time. Talent has far less value if you can't consistently deliver it on the field which McNeil was not able to do due to being so fragile and injury prone. Curtis was an extremely talented cut back runner who had an unparalleled talent to fight for additional yards along with the strength and twisting body control to minimize impact damage which, together with his tremendous conditioning regime and high threshold of pain tolerance, contributed greatly to his longevity as a player. While he wasn't flashy, home run style runner, he was "excellent" ( not just good) over a ten year period despite playing with numerous injuries and, at times, less than great offensive lines. In the final analysis, however, it is the results that count the more than anything else and that includes the opinions of arm chair QBs like you and me. The facts (and the stats) don't lie. Out of a total of 192 games, McNeil played in only 144 and started only 97. Martin, on the other hand, played in 168 out of a total of 176 possible games and started 166 of them. McNeil managed only two 1000 yard seasons to Martin's ten. Martin scored 100 TDs to 50 for McNeil while only fumbling 29 times to Freeman's 45 despite carrying the ball 1720 times more! Its amazing to me how few people realize and appreciate the "talent" it takes just to hold on to the damn ball. McNeil was a wonderful back but I would never pick him over McNeil as the best ever Jet back and nor would anyone who knows anything about football.
