Bottom line: Who would you want up in a big spot int he 9th inning of a postseason game? Jeter or ARod
They guy gave RISP from last year he dosen't remember that Jeter started out the first few month of the season hitting .195, no shit thats gonna lower his RISP also, then he turned it all around almost bringing his average up to .300 and bringing up his RISP average, dude to do that is like 3 hits or 2 a night almost. I do like A-Rod and all but he looks like an asshole out there now, except that last two games.
But Jeter and Rodriguez are totally different hitters, they can't be compared by a single statistic (even if sabermetricians try to tell you that OPS is the holy stat that measures hitting ability completely.) Jeter will never have as many total bases as Rodriugez and he's never gonna have as many sacrifice flies. Does that make him a worse hitter, even though he has an on base % of 40 points higher and he's stolen 17 more bases? Is Adam Dunn a better hitter than Ichiro Suzuki just because Dunn has a higher OPS? No, that's a ridiculous arguement to make (Ichiro hits almost 60 points higher than Dunn, steals far more bases and scores more runs while Dunn hits many more homers and knocks in more RBIs.) It's comparing apples and oranges.
I don't really understand your argument regarding Jeter and Rodriguez as hitters. I don't think anyone is arguing that Rodriguez is having a better year this year than Jeter, but for their careers they have almost the same OBP (.388 versus .385), while A Rod's SLG is far better (.572 versus .463). Are you seriously suggesting that for their careers Jeter has been a comparable hitter to Rodriguez? Their stolen base numbers (including success percentages) for their careers are also virtually identical, and when they were both playing SS, Rodriguez was the better fielder. Putting aside the whole "clutchness" thing, I don't see any argument that through their careers Jeter has been a better player than A Rod. I actually know a few people who are members of SABR, and believe me, the last thing they would say is that OPS is the holy stat that measures hitting completely. Even a cursory look at their literature would show that they are much more into runs created, win shares, linear weights, secondary average, value over replacement player, etc., etc. The nice thing about OPS is that it is simple to calculate, simple to understand, and is vastly better than batting average at measuring the quality of a hitter.
statjeff, I think the problem is everyone seems to be having different arguments. Here is what I think all of them boil down to: Jeter is more "clutch" than ARod, based mostly on postseason performance. ARod is a vastly better hitter over his career than practically anyone, especially Jeter. ARod was a far superior SS to Jeter and Reyes, but since he doesn't play the position anymore, and he has had much less success at third than the others have had in the same timeframe at SS, ARod's value has diminished. Reyes and Jeter are very good overall players, and very important to their teams. The argument stems more from who watches who more often. The player on the person's favorite team is going to favor their "guy." ARod has had a miserable year. The biggest question is can he recover before the postseason begins? Do Jeter's batting statistics alone make him worthy of the MVP award? While the general answer is no, do his fielding stats, along with his perceived intangibles push him over the top? My answers: I agree. Jeter is more clutch. That's admittedly very subjective. ARod doesn't have enough of a base to judge from. I agree. He is one of the best hitters of the modern era. Ever? I don't know. His total career will tell. If he returns to his last year's form for the majority of his career, he will retire as the HR king. If not... I agree. ARod was one of the best SS ever. The transition to third looked great lst year, but this year has been terrible as was his first try. Right now, Jeter and Reyes are about even as far as defensive skill IMO. See 3 He's been miserable. I just want him to play like he has the past couple days. Hopefully his confidence is boosted like it looked last night. His batting stats are not enough. Adding in the other pieces, then yes, I feel he is more valuable to the Yankees than Dye or Ortiz are to their teams. Those are the only two other guys even remotely comparable IMO. Beltran gets my NL vote, for much the same reasons, over Pujols.
I'm certainly not trying to argue that Jeter is a better hitter than A-Rod over their careers, I'm argueing for this season and against using OPS as the end all be all hitting statistic. Many people on this site do look at OPS and end the arguement there (3rdand15 being one of them.) That's where my problem lies.
I'd be surprised if people are saying that A Rod is having a better year than Jeter this year, but I certainly don't think so. I won't speak for 3rd other than to say that he's used stats other than OPS in many threads that I've seen, so I'd be surprised (again) if he argued that OPS ended the discussion. As I said in my post, and what I would have guessed he'd agree with, is that OPS is a nice quick summary, and is vastly better than batting average as a single measure of hitting performance.
Yes, they can be compared by a single statistic. You may want to say that Jeter is a "leadoff" type hitter while ARod is a "cleanup" type hitter. The upper eschelon of cleanup hitters are always going to be better and more valuable then the upper eschelon of leadoff hitters. Look at Bonds steroid fueled heyday, not only did he lead the league in slugging, but OBP as well. Alot of the top hitters in the league have OBP's around or over .400 in addition to high slugging percentages. How is a guy with an OBP of .420 and a slugging of .400 going to be a better hitter? How is the argument ridiculous? For all the hits Ichiro gets, Dunn's career OBP is actually higher then Ichiro's and he obviously has a massive advantage in slugging. Any sane person given the choice between Dunn and Ichiro to play a corner OF spot for their team would take Dunn. As for the OPS stuff, jeff is correct. It's a nice and clean number that easily recognizable and that people are going to be able to understand. VORP and RC are the more comprehensive stats, but unless there is a massive difference in the number of AB's for the players you're talking about, OPS is going to tell you the same thing about the quality of a hitter as these other stats would.
I missed the game yesterday, but I read about it this morning. It figures that as soon as I give up on him, he comes back to prove me wrong. Happens to me all the time. Penny, CMart, JAbe, and the list goes on and on for me. I think I'll just go give up on the Yankees and Jets for a weeks now, just in case it works... The only thing that did bother me though, is something he said after yesterday's game. He said everyone was more worried than he ever was. WTF is his problem? That's exactly why I gave up on him! ARod, you should have said something to the effect of "I was getting worried. I know I can play better than I have this year, but something was just off. I think I have it fixed now, but it was scary for a while there." The thing I find most amusing though is that he broke out after the fans started cheering him again. I said from day one that it was part of the problem. The fans jumped down his throat immediately after he started off July poorly. A few articles and ESPN blurbs later, he was the #1 Enemy of the State. It was blatantly obvious that he is an emotional player. He feeds off the energy around him. Getting booed on the road and cheered at home drives him. All I can say right now is that I am still not convinced. I want to see this production continue. All it takes is another playoff series like against the Angels last year, and he is back to the doghouse.
I'm glad to see that he is snapping out of it. But lets see him pull this off in October when it matters.
I don't think that a single GM in baseball would choose Dunn over Ichiro. Ichiro is the best leadoff hitter in baseball, can knock in runs and is probably the best defensive right fielder in the game as well. Dunn draws a lot of walks, but he doesn't get base hits and that's critically important to a lineup no matter how much people value walks and pitch counts these days. Combined with all of his strikeouts, Dunn almost never gets productive outs or moves runners over by putting the ball in play. A groundout to the right side or a single are both 10 times more valuable than a walk with a runner on second and 1 out. It's the difference between a run scoring inning and a blank frame. OPS is a useful stat but it can't stand alone. You have to take context into account and view it with other statistics.
I don't think I could disagree any more with your opening statements. I would take both NY leadoff hitters in a second over Ichiro and not even have to think about it. I'm sure I could come up with some more names if I really looked into it as well. As for the bolded statement this is just plain wrong and not even open to debate. Check out the Run Expectancy Matrix on Baseball Prospectus: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/s...56&PHPSESSID=2d9cbc194783c4edec3aaefa59eb30f1 A ground out to any side is never going to be more valuable then drawing a walk, sorry. That's fair enough and I've said as much, but you also can't disregard it, as you seem to be doing.
