For those guys who fuss and fret about QBs, you are not alone, it seems. Here's some of the interesting quotes about QBs that come out periodically (I think the earliest among these was a conversation recorded by Dr. Z in 2002) that might provide some grist for your grinding... QUOTES: Dr. Z: “What is it about the quarterback position that seems to fog the finest minds in football? Why are the most dramatic mistakes made in the area of evaluating QBs? I mean, why can't they tell?” "Just too many variables," says ex-Cowboys QB Troy Aikman, now an announcer for Fox-TV. "It's not an exact science," says the Patriots player personnel director, Scott Pioli. "Very few NFL people really understand the position," says another former-QB-turned-announcer, Phil Simms of CBS. “…Bill Walsh could see past the limited arm strength of a third-round draft pick named Joe Montana. He drafted Montana when others in the NFL questioned Montana's arm strength. He could see what the Tampa Bay Buccaneers couldn't see in Steve Young. In sum, when you peel the rhetoric and propaganda, fact is that there are very few teams running an offense that relies almost exclusively on the short pass to the extent of the 1980s 49ers. The last time we can confidently say a 49er-like WCO team won a championship was the Cheater Bowl after the 1994 season, when the illegally bought 49er defense finally overcame Steve Young's lack of arm strength. “…Walsh could see that Jerry Rice, a kid who played his college ball at Mississippi Valley State, had the goods to become the greatest wide receiver ever. “…He was an expert in developing quarterbacks, including Ken Anderson, Virgil Carter and Greg Cook with the Bengals, Dan Fouts with the San Diego Chargers, Guy Benjamin and Steve Dils at Stanford and, of course, Montana and Young with the 49ers. He said he looked for resourcefulness, creativity and passing accuracy in his quarterbacks; arm strength was far down the list. "We spent hours on everything a quarterback does: every step he takes, the number of steps he takes, how he moves between pass rushers or to the outside, when he goes to alternate receivers," he wrote in his 1989 book, "Building a Champion" "Walsh then found a willing and powerful arm in the likes of a young quarterback named Greg Cook, the AFL's rookie of the year in 1969. Cook passed for 1,854 yards that season, despite feeling a suspicious pop in his throwing shoulder. "No one realized that Cook's right shoulder and elbow had been irreparably damaged midway through his rookie season. Cook's promising football career was effectively over. "And Walsh had to retool. "Pure arm strength from an exceptional quarterback couldn't do it all, the coach surmised. "So the cunning coordinator devised an elaborate offensive choreography. His scheme was built on timing, precision, multiple sets, motion and quick drops by a powerful, smart quarterback -- the maestro whose footwork and vision conducted the entire symphony. "Eventually, the football would get downfield in a hurry, either through the air or in the hands of a running back set free by the frenzy of four or five receivers and tight ends swarming in routes. "Perhaps the most overrated element of quarterbacking is arm strength. There are times when a quarterback has to drive a ball between defenders, get it to the sideline in a hurry or launch a Hail Mary. "In those cases, it helps to have a rifle on your shoulder. But most of the time, a quarterback's ability to complete a pass depends on a combination of traits that can be summed up as "touch." "Touch basically is delivering a catchable ball whatever the circumstances. One component of touch is the ball's trajectory; the pass must go beyond the defender's hands and into the receiver's. Flat passes rarely do. Touch typically means taking a bit off your fastball, too, because the idea is to complete the pass, not to blast a hole in the receiver's chest. "Above all, touch requires accuracy and anticipation -- knowing when and where the receiver will come out of his break and having the ball there when he does. The sooner the ball leaves the quarterback's hand, the softer he can throw it, which makes it easier for the receiver to catch. "Every throw requires a different touch, whether it be a short slant across the middle, a 20-yard square-in or a corner fade route from the 15-yard line. It's a matter of getting the arc, velocity, direction and timing down for each one, and that comes from repeated practice. "Sound simple? You'd think so, but many guys get infatuated with their arm strength and don't work on their touch enough. It's like golf; if you practice only with your driver, your tee shots might be great, but the rest of your game will suffer because you've been ignoring your other clubs. "The same holds true in football. Different situations require different throws, and a quarterback will fail if he relies on his driver all the time. "That's why it kills me when I see a quarterback get criticized for not having a strong arm. Drew Brees got knocked for that coming out of Purdue, but he has been great in San Diego and now New Orleans. "He certainly can't throw the ball as hard as Brett Favre, but it just isn't that important. He can make all the throws, and when it's all said and done, that's really all that matters. "I was with Oakland at the time," Christensen says, "and I had a buddy who was trying to stick with the Niners as a quarterback. "I asked our special teams coach, Steve Ortmayer, who also did a lot of scouting, what my friend's chances were. "'Good,' Steve said. 'All they've got is this Notre Dame kid named Montana who just can't throw.'" "Strength of arm is the biggest coach-breaker in football, with height closely behind. Ryan Leaf: Broke a coach and sent a famous talent scout, Bobby Beathard, into retirement. Jeff George: not uncommonly tall, but what an arm! The ultimate coach-breaker. "The beach is littered with the wreckage. Actually broke two coaches on the same Redskins team, Turner and Marty Schottenheimer, both of whom were forced by the owner to play him...."
^^ Yes. Touch is the key, but the article kept saying "Make ALL the throws." This is where the debate thickens. We have an old QB who can't make ALL the throws anymore. Tom Brady isn't known for his arm strength, but he can make ALL the throws. JaMarcus Russell is the perfect example of all arm and no touch, and the Raiders are working on his touch so that this year he can be effective. But it will take time if he does it correctly. What those genius minds did not undervalue was how important that position is. Especially Bill Walsh.
^ Amen ND. That article EMPHASIZED how important the QB position is. Yeah, it's important to surround the QB with talent, and to give him protection, but in the end, you're not going to see a ton of offensive success without a very good player under C. And that point, about making all the throws, is why Pennington is toast. He simply cannot connect on the deep/intermediate out routes if there's a defender anywhere in the WR's area code. We've seen time and time again, games where Pennington will complete 75% of his passes in the first 58 minutes of the game, connecting on the routes he knows he can complete (the check down routes, the dump passes, the occasional seam or skinny post route, one or two fades, etc) en route to a high TOP, and a low point total. Then, in those final 2 minutes, his completion percentage plummets, as he is forced to try to complete those routes on the passing tree that he simply doesn't have the arm for. I love Chad as much as the next guy (well, maybe not as much as some of the people on here) but it's too obvious not to see. He simply can't make all the throws anymore, with any sort of defense present. As such, it's time to move on. Hopefully Clemens can develop some sense of touch, to pair with his arm strength in the coming months.
Cut Bryan Thomas. Any player actually admitting to being complacent has no heart. Especially one who has had only 1 decent year.
1) Bryan Thomas could indeed be cut or traded. I doubt it, but nothing would surprise me. 2) Enough with the QB controversy. I don't think there is one. I think, with increasing confidence, that Chad will be given the starting job, and a four-game rope to hang himself. If he can't at least get us to 2-2 at the bye week with some stats that can be appreciated (i.e., not helping us lose the game), then Mr. Pennington exits the building forever. He's made the playoffs for us three times and played admirably last year in the horrible weather in New England. He deserves one more chance with a rebuilt line. But a small, 4-game chance.
We play the Patriots and Charger in the second and third weeks of the season. If he goes 2-2 do you pull him? We also play teams that could win or lose games with us with scores like 35-40 if our D has a bad day. If he starts he finishes the season and that is that no matter how bad he plays.
I said at 2-2 you keep him—unless we're 2-2 by obvious strength of our defense and turnovers (i.e. Chad throws 5 interceptions and somehow we win). If he starts, he does not necessarily finish the season by any means. Consider Testaverde in 2002—I think that's what we're looking at here. And yes, I know we play the Pats and Chargers. Assumed losses. However, Dolphins and Cardinals should be assumed wins. 2-2 would be the expectation for a team that hopes to field an 8-8 record or better.
And remember- before Chad took the field in 2002 (his third year, just like Clemens this year), nobody expected that much of him...in preseason and mop-up duty he never really showed that much, despite being a first-round pick. When we benched Testaverde that year, many thought the season was over.
If I read one more story/post implying that Ryan Leaf somehow "proves" that having a strong arm doesn't matter (and therefore by implication Pennington is better than people say), I think I'll puke. As you note, there is actually nothing in there that argues that Pennington is the answer this year. Pennington did have a comparable arm to Montana back in 2002 - when he played great. He hasn't had an arm remotely close to that in 3+ years. Speaking for myself, comparing the current Pennington with Drew Brees is also ridiculous. Steve Young is presented as an example of a QB with a poor arm who won, yet the article actually slams him (saying it was really the defense that won in 1994), ignores that he brought something else to the table on offense (rushing, of course, as he averaged 358 yards rushing per year from 1991-1998; Pennington has rushed for 396 yards in his entire career), and seems to miss that he threw 35 TD passes and led the #1 offense (#4 in passing) that year (things that Pennington could never dream of doing at any point in his career). The argument seems to be that all NFL QBs fall into two groups - people who throw as hard as Brett Favre or Ryan Leaf, and everyone else. This is complete nonsense.
If Chad starts that proves that the organization failed as a whole because they drafted an heir apperent Qb that could not take out a Qb that was obviously done. If Chad starts let him finish or bring in Ainge because Kellen is not the answer in the coaching staffs eyes and it is time to put him to rest. I would hope Man and Tan are both fired after the season for not bringing in a vet after all this time who has something left. If Chad is anything other than a backup in his last year with the Jets we lose no matter what. We are not going to win a Sb with him so what is the purpose of letting him play anymore? None at all.
Not only did Chad not have a compable arm to Young in 02 but he does not have a comparable arm to any Qb that has ever played in the Nfl. I can not remember a Qb with as weak an arm as Chad. Starter or bench warmer and this guy is defended as if he is Dan Marino!
^ Chad's arm is very weak, but you have to agree that he did make some decent decisions on the field last year, rather than just trying to chuck it downfield.
Quote: "...I would hope Man and Tan are both fired after the season for not bringing in a vet after all this time who has something left...." I would like to know what your opinion is of a "Vet who has something left" who was available in FA in 06, and in 07, and in 08. QBs who are generally considered to "have something left" are about as hard to get in a trade as promising major league pitchers, it seems to me. I think that if this FO and CS thought there was a genuinely superior veteran QB available out there "with something left" then he would probably have replaced Patrick Ramsey or Tueasosupo (Sp?) a couple of years ago, and this year he would have been brought in instead of Ratliff or Ainge. This way, if this veteran QB, having luckily fallen into the hapless NYJ CS / FO's lap, truly "has something left" he would beat all these other "pretenders" out quite handily. So, who's the guy you're pointing to?
As of the start of the 2007 season Daunte Culpepper had a higher passer rating than Chad and had gone deeper into the playoffs as well. David Carr could flourish with the right coaching. He has the skill but is still shell shocked from the Texans. Chris Simms would have been a nice option. I think all three are better than Chad!
That's the problem. He thinks to much instead of trying to make a play like the dummies who win superbowls! Pls reference Manning to Tyree this past year in the Sb, Bradshaw to Swann, Marino or Farve to anybody. I hear they didn't fare to well on the wonderlick test.
So far, it appears that Miller's improved play is the best thing I have heard of from all the mini camp reports. If he blows by Barrett and emerges the clear favorite to start, that would be huge. Solid play from him along with Revis and Rhodes will make the unsettled situation for the other safety slot, while still important, somewhat less so, much less so as compared to also having Barrett back there.
LOL...I love this kind of quote....actually I'm lying...I hate that and the fact that theres people who would agree with that on this board. So um...who should they have signed? Why would they have signed said QB? Daunte Culpepper and David Carr? Seriously? Like seriously...think about what you're saying instead of spouting some half assed angry bullshit. Like does EVERYTHING need to mean more than it actually does...as long as its negative in nature in the first place?
