Another thing to note when evaluating Pouha: where he was drafted and the immediate value available at other positions. Looking at that draft (which was an absolute disaster for the Jets at nearly every pick), the only players I could see the Jets taking who would have been an improvement and a possibility are Marion Barber and Brandon Jacobs, who went in the 4th. Nick Kaczur was taken shortly after Pouha, but we had Pete Kendall and Brandon Moore at the time. Domonique Foxworth? We drafted Justin Miller in the 2nd. Most of the teams drafting into the next round after the Jets made bad picks. It's what happens at the end of the 3rd round and beyond. The fact that the Jets are getting production out of Pouha, as opposed to most of the players at that point who are now out of the league, HAS to keep the pick from being "a disaster".
Or you could just mention the simple fact that the 2005 draft was god fucking awful to begin with. The relative value of talent available that year was mostly a large group of underachievers. I mean, look at the disaster the Packers made. They spent a first round draft pick on Aaron Rodgers and he wasn't a lick of help to them for three seasons. Ted Thompson should have been drawn and quartered.
5ux already said that the only rookies that should be allowed to develop and sit out in the NFL are quarterbacks. It's a completely moronic argument that he's trying to make, but just giving a heads up before he starts babbling again.
QBs absolutely should get the benefit of the doubt for multiple seasons over other positions. I disagree with him that it's a problem if mid to late round picks take time to develop, but as far as early picks go (1st and 2nd round), only a QB should take the length of his rookie contract to develop. To get production at any point is good, but to justify an early pick, you really need to get production fairly early. Where I really disagree with Br4dw4y, though, is on the aftermath. Thomas was absolutely a bad pick as far as value is concerned. Not a disaster, of course, but he gave us one good season on his entire rookie contract. Having said that, I sure as hell would rather have him contribute one season than none, be a solid run stopper and slightly underrated rusher than a complete bust. He certainly didn't merit that 1st rounder, but I'm not going to pretend he hasn't been an asset on his second contract, either. That's where Br4dw4y seems to have his biggest problem. He can say that there were better places to spend a pick, but we're still getting production out of players he calls a disaster.
I don't believe that any 3rd round pick could be labeled a "disaster." Do I consider Anthony Schlegel a disaster? Not really. We drafted him, he busted, he's gone. He didn't exactly leave a trail of destruction in his wake. Draft pick disasters fuck up your franchise for a while, either by tying up a shitload of money and/or draft picks or by occupying a draft slot that clearly should have gone to a more talented player. D-Slob, then, was a disaster. Kyle Brady over Warren Sapp was a disaster. I could reasonably understand Thomas over Reed being a disaster. But not a third rounder. Third rounders are either hits, misses or grand slams.
The disaster is in the loss of tempo that having a player take forever to develop creates. If Bryan Thomas was good early on we might well have won a Super Bowl in 2002 or 2004. John Abraham was injured for the playoffs in 2004 and we took the Steelers to OT in the divisional round in Pittsburgh. One sack that day and the Steelers ran all over us. Thomas was playing RDE in the 4-3 because Abraham was not available. If Sione Pouha was any good out of the gate we might have avoided the disaster that was 2005 when the Jets gave up 2,185 yards rushing and 19 TD's on the ground. Game after game that year we got stampeded by the opposing rushing attack. We might have avoided the disaster that was 2007 where the Jet's also gave up 2,000+ yards on the ground. Yeah he was injured in 2006 but the two years he played the Jet's run D blew chunks. The depth issues are another matter. The offensive line just has not had enough picks made there over the last 5 seasons and it shows. The Jets have only exercised 23 picks since 2007. That's 4.6 picks a year. Of those 23 picks 15 have been skill position players not in the defensive front seven or on the offensive line. Another way of saying this is that over the last 5 seasons the Jets have drafted 8 OL, DL and LB's. 8. How is that even possible? Yeah they sent 2 picks to Carolina for Kris Jenkins but they have sent 2 to Cleveland for Braylon Edwards and 1 to San Diego for Antonio Cromartie and 1 to Pittsburgh for Santonio Holmes so even the trade acquisitions using draft picks have been unbalanced away from the line of scrimmage. The Jets look hollow near the line of scrimmage because they are hollow near the line of scrimmage and all it takes is an injury or two to point that glaring flaw out.
What about them? You implicitly criticized 5ux for saying that "the only rookies that should be allowed to develop and sit out in the NFL are quarterbacks." Are we talking about WRs completely missing the field for two seasons, or making a minor contribution and then exploding in year 3? I'd have a problem with a 1st or 2nd round pick not seeing the field for 2 years unless he's a QB(which is why I've come around to Ducasse being a poor pick, but NOT necessarily a wasted one). For example, Rodgers in 2005 went into a great situation to sit for 3 years, and no one had a problem with it. No one had a problem with Kolb sitting. Do you think Falcons fans would have had a problem if Roddy White sat out the first two years? He went a few picks after Rodgers in 2005. He didn't truly 'pick things up' until 2007, but he was absolutely on the field for the first two years of his career. If I drafted a WR in the first two rounds, I wouldn't expect him to be a star in years 1 or 2, but I'd sure as hell want him to be on the field. That's the difference that I got from your post; it's why I said that QBs absolutely should receive the benefit of the doubt over other positions. They should be able to sit for two years without having the pick questioned.
Contribution. Expecting all rookies except for quarterbacks to contribute at a high level isn't realistic. 5ux is always talking about "reality" ...he's the one that has unreal expectations here. Roddy White is the perfect example of a high pick not being a huge contributor until he played a couple seasons in the league. Atlanta fans were bitching about him not starting, but he wasn't ready. He came out of a mid-major program and couldn't adjust to the NFL immediately. He started half of the games in his rookie year because of injury and only start five games in his second year. So...he really wasn't on the field all that much. White didn't catch more than 4 passes in a game until his third season.
But that wasn't the point of contention that you brought up. You had a problem with the idea that only quarterbacks should be "allowed to develop and sit out." I'm not talking about contributions. As I said in the next line, it's fine if a player doesn't contribute much in his first couple of seasons. It's to be expected. However, it most certainly is a problem is a player is drafted that high and NEVER sees the field in his first two years...unless he's a quarterback. That was my point. He didn't have to make big contributions, but he was on the field. He had roughly 30 catches per in his first two seasons. That's exactly what I'd expect from a receiver drafted in his spot. I'd obviously hope for faster results, but I wouldn't expect them. From a QB, though, I'd ideally be in a position to let him sit for a year or two. It's different.
My whole point is that if you can't get on the field as a high draft pick you'd better be a QB or the odds are you were a really bad pick. A high pick gets injured? Well that's the breaks. He plays poorly on the field? Well that could easily be the process of adapting to a much faster game. He can't get on the field at all? That's a bust in the making.
I totally agree with u there. Not sure how it is so difficult for that guy to understand that thinks he knows it all. To Mr. I know It All, out of all the examples, you picked Roddy White? Seriously, when u are getting owned, just back off from the keyboard will ya? Abyzmal was right. U keep deflecting posts that make u look dumb. I already know what ur reply would be, but go on, type it up anyways. There's a HUGE difference in getting playing time and showing improvement every year as opposed to being on the freaking bench for two years and STILL be considered a good draft pick (exception of course is the QB). Roddy White had two decent seasons before he got to become a full time starter. He showed improvement over the first two seasons. I don't think Bradwaysux implied that a first round rookie needs to come out the gate all guns blazing and light the nfl on fire from the get go. Of course there is a development stage. But if a first rounder sits on the bench for two years, its simple. He is not good enough to BE on the field. QB is about the ONLY position where a better incumbent will keep the new comer on the bench for sometime. Every other position has playing time. Even OL. If u can't squeeze in that playing even after an injury to the starter, there is something seriously fucking wrong. DuCasse, although a 2nd round pick, is a bust. Two years and he has shown no development. He might get to see the field next year and possibly become a starter in his year four (being optimistic), but after that year, he may very well become a FA. To me, you just used a 2nd round pick that made u wait for four years, and when he's ready to give you something in return, he becomes a FA is nothing short of a bust. He might have a Hall of Fame career with another team, but that's actually worse than a bust as far as my team is concerned.
Pretty much exactly what I was going to type. At least Pouha had the decency to not get paid a big deal like Thomas. And he only cost a 3rd. There's an argument to be made that he was a disappointing pick because he really wasn't any good during his rookie year. But you can't call it a disaster. That's outrageous. At least he got on the field. He wasn't that good for a few years, but he still got on the field when he was young, and he turned out to be a very solid player for us. That's not a disaster. It's closer to a success because our talent evaluators were able to lock him up at a reasonable contract and he's given us 2.5 years of good production in that time. If Ellis can't even get on the field, and then he turns out to be nothing, then it's a disaster. Anthony Schlegel was a disaster. Sione Pouha was a decent pick. Signing Tevaseu raises an eyebrow for sure, but at the same time, it's not like Tevaseu is some outside guy we're bringing in because Ellis sucks. We've had Tevaseu around for a while, he should know the defense, and they had him active in the playoffs last year, so it's possible they're just trying to make sure they have him around. The run defense sucks right now. I would expect Tevaseu to be better than Ellis right this second as a young player who has been around for a few years. They could just want to keep him from signing elsewhere, and the next several teams we play like to run the ball if they can, so we need to shore that up immediately. Is this a good sign? No. Is this a bad sign? Maybe, but even if it is, we knew there would be a learning curve. If Tevaseu is better right now, I'm fine with it. Pouha is getting worn down in these games. MTV will probably get some time right away to spell him. Plus, he's 24 years old, I'm curious to see what he can bring. The issue is that the Jets don't have enough other draft picks where they can keep affording to take guys that don't contribute at all year one.
I don't think you actually know what the reply will be since you don't seem to know who that comment addresses. I picked Roddy White. Abyzmul, as far as I know, doesn't have a problem with me. If I'm getting owned here, however, for choosing him, I'd love to know why...especially since I picked Roddy White, as I stated, to illustrate the point you make right here: That's exactly what I said. Again, THAT is why White entered the conversation.
IR, I hate getting in the middle of board hatred (just not my thing), but I think his comment was directed toward Mr. E, and I think what he knew E would say is die in a fire, which will be funny when he eventually types it. Back on topic- I just think it's premature to assume ANYTHING about Ellis and why he's not getting on the field unless something, ANYTHING, leaks out as to why, and what Rex is thinking in regards to not suiting him up. As I've said, I clearly have high expectations for him, and may one day be an Ellis apologist. But for now, I just think it's too early to assume anything.
