Quote: "...lately he seems to make the wrong reads with alot of his routes getting jumped late in games..." I think what you're talking about here is pretty obvious -- once the DL breaks through the line of scrimmage, the only routes the QB (any QB) has time to see and hit are the short routes. This of course is the objective of the defense and the DBs are instructed and ready licking their chops as they jump these routes. Once again, Gentlemen, we are describing a well-executed defense that a failing OL will victimize every QB with over and over as the game wears on. Of course it is the QB's fault. Why can't he do everything in 1.8 seconds? What's the matter with him?
I agree with his passes being soft, but I can't help but go back to the NE game. He came in cold with 3rd and 18 and drilled a 16 yard out. Then the throw to McCareins later in the game was on a rope. It wasn't Favre or Elway, but he put it right in there. His velocity was better in the Titans and NE game than it was in the earlier games. I still wander about the high ankle sprain and his throwing motion.
Yea that pass was on a rope, I think it shocked everyone. And I mean everyone, the Pats D, all fans, and especially Justin McCareins.
If the only option he has to throw are the short routes, it helps if he can get the ball there quickly. Chad can not get the ball out quickly with any velocity on the throw. Far too many games were ended with late 4th quarter picks and it the lines fault every time? The same line was there for the late drive in the ravens game and the win in Pittsburgh. Two very good defenses that did not come up with the late game heroics against us. McDrophands cost us the Ravens game plain and simple. Our Passing offense has not been good for a few years part of that is the line, but part of it is also the QB.
Quote: "...Our Passing offense has not been good for a few years part of that is the line, but part of it is also the QB...." I don't actually blame the QB so much as I do the WRs and the OL. If we were able to run the ball effectively, we wouldn't attempt so many short passes. If we were able to pass block, we would have more choices of WRs getting open -- except when they couldn't outrun and separate from the DBs guarding them (a chronic problem). The passing game of the BS offense calls for a lot of play action and mis direction. If the OL doesn't block for the run, and the run is not effective, the passing game is ruined. This has to do with the offense's strategy not the QB's talent. When the play calls for a spread when all the backs are out on the line of scrimmage with the wide outs, then the onus is on the OL to keep the pass rush off the QB long enough for him to have both long choices and short choices. But when this doesn't happen (as with the NYJ OL) then only the short choices are available. It doesn't take long for the DBs to notice this and take advantage.
So you Blame the OL, your Blame the WR, further on you point at the offense Shotty runs, but never once want to place a little of the blame on our anemic passing offense on the guy who throws the ball? Seems a little short sighted to me. "Hey I have a flat tire, we better get a new car and drive on different roads so it works better" All of the components play thier part. Yes the the offensive line needed to be improved, but a better line is not add zip to Chad's throws. Our WR's are at fault how? By running good routes and taking big hits? By having speed to break open the short throws? Where exactly is this falling on the heads of Coles and Cotch? Both are playmakers who can do alot after the ball gets to them, if it ever does. I'm not a huge fan of Shott's offense, but want to see more out of it with the new additions to the line.
The NYJ CS is going with this offensive strategy. That's what we got. But it requires an OL that blocks well for the run, so that the run is the obvious option, and the defense has to play the run first every down. Otherwise, they get burned good. Once you can run on them, then you can dictate to them with this offense. When the play calling is enforced by a raging monster OL (look at the NYG for example and all the RBs they have made heroes of for the last few years), then the QB can take the initiative. When the OL doesn't block well for either the run or the pass, then the QB has to react to what the defense gives him in a smaller and smaller segment of time as they close in on him. No QB will do well under these circumstances. You can check out Tom Brady in the SB to see what can happen when your OL can't dominate the line of scrimmage. Don't kid yourself that the quarterback can do anything by himself. It's not true in the NFL for sure.
I'm not kidding my self, it really seem the other way around. No where did I claim the QB can do anything by himself. No QB can. My claims that even with a good line, Chad is nothing more then a decent game manager with a very weak arm. One that has been throwing alot of picks late in games to kill us lately. Kellen may or may not be the answer. His release is much quicker with more power on his throws. What remains to be seen is if he can be the guy game in and game out for a full season. QB just happens to be the current biggest question mark entering this season. We have a young gun that needs to prove he can handle the team and a vet that is a the down side of a brief and injury prone stay as a Jet QB. BTW, nice attempt to skirt the issue of calling or the wide receivers as a problem. Care to answer that one yet?
Since the debate has continued in another thread, making this thread #7,405 of the Pro/Anti QB debates i'd like to reiterate the following, and then offer new insight. A QB does need a supporting cast to do well, but the supporting cast should not be the only reason for a QB doing well. A QB must also be able to make his supporting cast better. OL,WR,RB,TEs cannot nurse a QB for his whole career to be a great offense. Its the Super Bowl winning QB who makes his OL,WR,RB,TEs look just as good as they make him. Its a relative theory. Farve, Manning, Elway, Montana, Brady, Bart Starr, Bradshaw, Bob Griese, Aikman, Staubach, Dawson, Sonny Jurgenson, Sid Luckman, Bobby Layne and Unitas all made their teams better due to leadership, talent, poise, and the abilty to sustain Game Winning Drives. Who was the last QB on the Jets to have what those guys have besides a Super Bowl ring?? (Exclude Namath) Here is the fact of football-- you need a guy like the ones mentioned above to win it all. Enough of this "if the other 10 are great, then the QB will be too"-- every coach, GM, and analyst will laugh in your face. By the way, all the mentioned names i pulled off of this site: http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/positions.html Go to the Modern Era QB list... 90% of those QBs listed, and all of the ones I listed have quotes such as "astute field general", "suberb signal caller", "Led team"- that one is a favorite of theirs; "called own plays"- so much for a OC controlling everything (Namath did it too); "directed his team"- i'll relate it to movies, does the supporting actor yell ACTION? no; "exceptional field leader", "poised team leader", i like this one alot- a few QBs have it on the site "KNOWN FOR LAST MINUTE HEROICS"; "thrived on pressure"; etc. I think everyone gets the point... Enough of this constant debate that seems never ending. There is an agreed theory in the NFL that although can be questioned is never wrong......Its starts at the QB position. Thank you for reading.
So...why not put a QB in a situation where he can succeed and let the fans and HOF voters add in the magic and intangibles part? I'm not saying franchise QBs don't exist or that I don't think there are special QBs...but people go add way too much extra crap in there for these guys. Part of the reason Bill Walsh installed his West Coast offense, and why the West Coast O changed the way offenses are run today is because NFL coaches finally realized that they can manipulate QB stats to an extent. If theres a QB with the magical, intangible QB qualities we all dream about, then I hope he becomes a Jet. But...for now I'd rather make do with what we have and solve actual problems and not perceived problems. It sucks our QBs don't seem to have the magic of the all-time great QBs who never struggled and always led their teams and franchises to victory almost singlehandedly. It really does. Still, I think if we go the crazy/dumb way of improving the team as a whole, we just might find our magical being who will single handedly change everything for us.
You've got it, DWare. Fix the real, down-to-earth problems first that have dogged the NYJ for years and years. Once those are fixed, and we're running rough shod over people there's plenty of opportunity to find some magic.
By the way, guys, Marvin Lewis' latest interview is pretty funny. He's got that KCK tone going -- says he thinks throwing the ball around all the time is no longer so "cute", that they need to get back to the real business of running the ball. Actually get AGGRESSIVE for a change. Look out.
Just so everybody knows where they stand: This NYPOST am with Mark C.: "... "One thing I can say with conviction: We're working as hard and as smart as we possibly can to get better and make progress. [Jets fans] are not alone. I'm right there with them. We all want the same things." * Mangini is staying true to a quarterback competition from now through training camp between Kellen Clemens and Chad Pennington. "I've talked to both of those guys," Mangini said. "They're two good guys who are competitive and want to start. Nothing has changed with either one of them. They're two Type A personalities. It's important for both guys to have an opportunity. Chad has done a lot of really good things for us and Kellen has shown a lot of promise. They both deserve a chance to have that opportunity."
Every Analyst in the league has a sideways snicker when they have to talk about Chad. The sad thing is The only two Quarterbacks who were as bad as Chad who won Championships in the last 25 years have had two of the best defenses of all time. None of the Chad supporters have an answer for the Last minute Heroics or Thrive under pressure arguement for Chad. Has he ever had a last minute game winning drive in the last six years? When faced with a true playoff caliber team in Jan he has folded like a deck of cards every time! This article was about what a winning Qb needs and you will have five responses saying Chad needs help! Blah, Blah, Blah!
3 additional posts and you have yet to state why you think the receivers are a bigger part of the problem than the QB. Nice. Very champ like of you to get called out and completely avoid it and go on to something else. I'm not doubting that there will be an open competition, but thanks for stating the obvious quotes again and again. My real concern is that we do not have the answer for QB. Chad is decent at his best anymore and down right awful at times. Kellen has some tools and need to find a way to keep it all togeather for a full game, week after week. Now that we've seemly fixed the O-line one if them has to step it up alot and I'm not sure either one of them can. I'm hoping Kellen does, he showed alot of promise early last season.
Thats exactly my point-- nothing i stated in my previous post has been met by previous or current Jet QBs. Thats why i want the exuses to stop.
Hey, Harpua, I have had some meetings away from this computer today. Sorry that I didn't notice your "Call-out". First of all, the CS has used LC as the "rabbit" because he is the fastest receiver we have. Originally, he ran a 4.3 forty, and I really believe that he is not that far away from that now. LC has run a lot of flies because of his speed and he has the credibility individually to get the DBs to give chase. However, because the OL does not block for the pass, and everybody in the NFL has even stopped laughing at our run fakes, LC's sprinting is marginally effective. The other receivers are slow -- McC can get up a head of steam but nobody really believes he ever comes down with one, the choke artist that he is. I think that Jerico Cotchery ran about a 4.55 or 4.6 when he came up. But he has worked really hard at his routes and gives maximum effort all the time. LC is used to run off the Safeties and the DB to give Cotch a chance to break a good route and get open. Our backs in the flat don't work very well -- not because TJ can't catch (he can) or because Leon isn't shifty (he is), it's just that the LBs and the CBs are waiting right on top of the routes licking their chops. Neither Kellen or Chad got enough set up time on most of their passes so the DBs were in a singular advantage. What we need is more than one flyer besides LC. We need a slot guy who can dart quickly like Welker. I am hoping that C. Stuckey can fulfill this role, but he has to stay healthy long enough to get in a real game for us to see. You need at least two and hopefully three wide-outs who can instill real jeopardy in the DBs if they don't pay close enough attention or slip. Breakaway speed is very helpful to freak them out. But slick quick abrupt route running can be just as effective. This route running is what gets me about Brad Smith. He is a cruiser, in that he doesn't look very fast, though he is moving along. But he has to get his BODY UNDER CONTROL much better, because he has to be able to change direction and speed more abruptly if he is going to get on the DB's nerves. I mean, eventually, he might be able to outrun a DB or two if he gets 30 seconds and 45 yards or so, but that is not what happens normally in the NFL. If Brad Smith can learn how to run routes better under excellent body control he could get there. But that takes a lot of work on every rep. you want to see what it takes, look just how hard Harrison works with Peyton. Over and Over and Over again. They practice these little variations five to eight yards out and they just KILL the DBs. It's deadly route running with Harrison, body control, stopping and starting on a pin head -- never mind a dime -- and changing direction to stun the DB into a drool. The NYJ WRs need a lot of work -- except for Cotch (you can't teach speed) and LC (pretty much the best we've got -- they have to stop using him for a decoy to get Cotch open). I think a 4.4 guy who's 6-3 or more and weighs better than 210 lbs. who is willing to run under control with great routes would be a great draft pick. I also think that Leon should be used in the slot more this year while TJ and Jesse C take turns busting it up the gut, because he has just the startling change-up and break-away speed we need to complement Cotch and LC. Hell, Leon can get both of them open after a few from-the-slot lightning z-cuts catch the ball and outrun the LBs and CBs for 40 to 50 yards.
