Gastineau was a 1st team All-Pro in 1982 and 1984. Dean was a 1st team All-Pro in 1981. Tippett was a 1st team All-Pro in 1985 and 1987. I don't think any of those guys was clearly more dominant than the other two. They are fairly even. To me, Tippett and Dean are borderline guys. There are other pass rushers (whether they be DEs, DTs, or OLBs) who are more deserving of a bust in Canton. On the outside looking in and, in my opinion, better than Tippett & Dean, and Gastineau for that matter- Chris Doleman Rickey Jackson Claude Humphrey Richard Dent Rich (Tombstone) Jackson Derrick Thomas Rich Jackson won't ever get in, I understand that. His career was cut very short due to injury. He was a comet. He was brilliant against the run and did find his way to the quarterback quite a bit, too. (Dr. Z) Paul Zimmerman rates him with Reggie White and Deacon Jones as the best DEs of all-time. Thomas will probably get in at some point. Dent has been a finalist three times. Same with Humphrey. (Maybe it's 4 times each- my numbers are through the 2007 class. I didn't pay attention to the players who were finalists but didn't get the call for 2008.) I don't know what the problem is with Chris Doleman and Rickey Jackson. Those two belong in the PFHOF.
its hard to believe i just read a 3 page post on sacks and not one mention of LT. maybe i missed it. but anyhow, here's to Mark G's pro boxing career. anybody remember that fight? i'd nail his daughter and not even feel bad about it >
Officially, Taylor has 132.5 sacks. Strahan has 141.5 sacks. Taylor had 9.5 sacks in 1981, but those are not recognized because stats did not become "official" till 1982. Therefore, Taylor really has Strahan beaten by half a sack.
There's no question in my mind that LT was a better football player than Strahan. Strahan has good longevity, he was great at both the run and the pass, and he helped the NYG win that Super Bowl. But whatever else, LT was just the best there ever was at what he did, and he redefined the position from then on. Gastineau completely destroyed himself with everybody watching and he shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath with these guys because of his wilful self-destruction. Gastineau was also a cancer in the NYJs -- he is the only football guy the NYT's Anderson ever hated on that I know about.
I think Gastineau played the way he did by design. The coaches knew who they had inside and Gastineau's role was to rush the way he did, it was effective. That's why it's hard to always compare apples to apples with stats on defensive players from different teams and eras. Everyone isn't doing the same things in a given defense, just because they line up at the same position.
This debate is all very interesting, I could care less about Strahan, he was a great player and will be remembered fondly by Giants fans I suppose. I always liked Gas but I never forgave him for that ridiculous late hit on Bernie Kosar................oh no, I've spoken about that game again. Now I will have to go back into therapy.
I think Gastineau played the way he did because that's what he wanted to do and he got a ton of measurable results out of it and so he could stand off the coaches. I remember a bunch of articles about the coaching staff wanting him to stay at home a bit longer and not bite on the screens and draws as often as he did. They didn't have a lot of success with that and the sack numbers gave them very little leverage. John Abraham, for all his faults, was a MUCH better all-around player than Mark Gastineau.
I disagree with that because Abraham never showed up for big games. Like Gastineau or hate him, he was huge in the playoffs every time we got there with him. I loved Abraham and he was the closest thing to Gastineau we've had since Gastineau, but put them both in the draft and I'll take Gastineau every time. Heart goes a long way in football and Gastineau beats Abraham by a wide margin there.
On the field I'd take Abraham. Of course getting him on the field was one of the big issues. All the Gastineau love ignores the fact that he was a me-first numbers oriented player who wanted his sacks at all costs. Contrast that with Klecko who just wanted to be part of the best defense he could be in and who limped onto the field to try to make a difference a bunch of times during his career and you have the reason Gastineau is never going to make the hall of fame: Klecko has to go first because he was a better player and Klecko's numbers just aren't good enough. That tells you what all Gastineau's numbers really added up to. Gastineau was the kind of player where if he got 3 sacks and the Jets lost anyway he was ok with that but if they won and he got shutout he was surly in the locker room.
I don't disagree with any of that, and I said earlier in the thread I think Klecko was the better player. Still, I'd take Gastineau over Abraham any day of the week. I do think having the line the Jets had allowed Gastineau to be the way he was and get away with it, if he played on the Abraham teams it's pure speculation as to how it would go. Again, Gastineau if anything would fit in better with today's me-first NFLer than he did back in the 80s. Nobody would have said a word about the sack dance or anything else--hell, he could have brought a Sharpie on the field with him and be glorified on SportsCenter for it.
I was a great fan of Gastineau, just like I loved Mohammed Ali -- Big Mouth and Back It Up. The sack dance pissed off other players and distracted the game -- otherwise it was tame compared to Chad Ass Johnson's horse manure. But Gastineau was worse than egotistical. He was hard and loud on the outside but soft and rotten on the inside. He was a cancer on the Jets. Check out this 1987 Column: SPORTS OF THE TIMES; IT'S TIME FOR THE JETS TO SACK MARK GASTINEAU By DAVE ANDERSON Published: October 4, 1987 “IF the Jets hope to create the locker-room love that a Super Bowl contender needs, Mark Gastineau must be sacked as soon as possible. He is no longer a ''teammate,'' if he ever was. He must be shipped away, preferably in a trade that will enhance the Jets' future. “Gastineau, who will be 31 years old next month, had outlived his usefulness to the Jets even before the current National Football League strike. But the strike has put in perspective both him and the resentment of the other Jets toward him. For him and the other Jets, things can only get worse before they get better. “As the only Jet player to report immediately to the alleged Jets team that will oppose the alleged Dallas Cowboys at Giants Stadium today, Gastineau explained that he needed his five-year $3.7 million contract to continue so he could comply with support payments to his estranged wife, Lisa - as if he were the only Jet with bills to pay. ''We expected it from Mark,'' Dave Jennings, the Jets' punter, said at the time. ''He's always put himself in front of the team. He's a very selfish individual.'' “While crossing the picket line in his gray Mercedes-Benz on Thursday morning with a female companion, the 260-pound Gastineau was surrounded by Jet players spitting on his car. When he opened his window to pick up a pass from a security guard, he thought Guy Bingham, the Jets' 260-pound center, spat in his face. Bingham later denied it. But after jumping out of his car, Gastineau scuffled with Bingham and a few other players, then he exchanged hard words with two other strikers, Reggie McElroy and Tom Baldwin. “''When someone spits in your face, I don't care how many of them there are,'' Gastineau said, ''there's no way in the world I'll ever take that.'' “As the Jets' assistant player representative, McElroy later issued a statement of apology for the ''spitting'' that escalated into violence. “But the significance of Gastineau's explanation was in his choice of two words - ''I'' and ''them.'' On a football team, it's supposed to be ''us,'' not ''I'' and ''them.'' This was not just another picket-line confrontation that will be forgotten when the strike is settled. This was a personality conflict between Gastineau and the other Jet players that has simmered for years and has now boiled over into what divorce lawyers would call irreconcilable differences. “The next day Joe Klecko and Marty Lyons crossed the Jets' picket line without incident. The striking Jets were ''disappointed'' at the decision of the two defensive linemen. But unlike Gastineau, both Klecko and Lyons had talked to the other Jets about their reasons. Klecko, still ''physically unable to perform'' following knee surgery last winter, might never play again and can collect his $812,000 salary. Lyons spoke of his financial responsibility to his family. “Even at the peak of his All-Pro form, Gastineau was never popular in the locker room. When the 6-foot-5-inch defensive end missed the first four games of the 1985 season after surgery for a broken thumb, his wife, Lisa, reported that not one Jet player phoned to inquire about his condition. “Over the years, many of the other Jet players shook their heads and rolled their eyes whenever Gastineau did his sack dance that infuriated opposing teams. Or when he drove a Rolls-Royce into the Jets' training complex in Hempstead during his Studio 54 trial. Or when he draped himself in his mink coat. Or when he appeared, muscles bulging, in a television commercial for a health spa proclaiming how he had become bigger, stronger and faster. ''And dumber,'' one viewer of that commercial liked to say. “Now in his ninth season, Gastineau has 105 career sacks in 124 games, including 9 in seven playoff games. Since the N.F.L. began auditing sacks in 1982, his total of 62 1/2 regular-season sacks is second to Dexter Manley, the Washington Redskins' defensive end who has 64 1/2 sacks. But Gastineau's eagerness for the sack has not always been matched by his smarts. One of Gastineau's most memorable plays was a roughing-the-passer penalty that enabled Bernie Kosar to rally the Cleveland Browns to a 23-20 double-overtime victory in last season's playoffs. “Gastineau contended that he was ''just following through'' when he leveled Kosar from behind, but Bud Carson, the Jets' defensive coordinator, called it a ''dumb'' penalty. “''We had a lot of situations in which we've been aggressive, but not smart aggressive,'' Carson said at the time. ''We've never quite found out how to play smart aggressive.'' “At his best, Gastineau was a feared pass-rusher, arguably faster and quicker than anyone his size in N.F.L. history. But he has no sacks this season. And last season, slowed by groin and abdominal muscle ailments and then by a damaged left knee that required arthroscopic surgery, he had only 2 sacks, plus 2 1/2 in the playoffs prior to the costly penalty in Cleveland. “When the strike ends, it won't be easy for the Jets' front office to unload Gastineau, especially with his big contract. But a Super Bowl XXII contender in need of a pass-rusher might be willing to pay his salary and part with an early-round draft choice. If not, the Jets would be better off swallowing what remains of his contract that expires after next season. Without him, the Jets can go about the task of rebuilding a Super Bowl contender with true teammates in a clear atmosphere. With him, the Jets are doomed to coping with Mark Gastineau in his hostile relationship with too many other players. Coping with him against them.” He was the classic bully who came apart at the first pulling of the loose string: Wikipedia: "Mark Gastineau was also famous for his highly-publicized romance with model and actress Brigitte Nielsen They'd met following the 1987 season, and during 1988 training camp she showed up at a scrimmage between the Jets and Washington Redskins at Lafayette College in Pennsylvania; she was driven onto the sidelines of the field in a limousine followed by photographers and TV cameras; following the scrimmage she and Mark publically hugged and kissed. Gastineau's relationship with Nielsen coincided with a sudden resurgence in his game early in the 1988 season, but in mid-season came his retirement announcement soon after Nielsen claimed to be suffering from cancer of the uterus; the announcement was followed by a surge of investigation by local New York papers of whether she was telling the truth, reflecting citywide mistrust of Gastineau." Such a disappointment for such a talented guy who listened to all the wrong voices.
Career sacks don't necessarily mean an automatic HOF visit. Just look at Kevin Greene. He's #3 alltime in sacks and isn't in the HOF yet. However, most people are predicting that Strahan will be a first ballot guy.
I heard that too. I don't blame Strahan for that, I blame Brett Favre for that. It always gets talked but from Strahan's context since he gets the record, but egg should be on Favre's face as well. But then again that would require people saying something bad about Lord Favre. How many people fans and media would actually do and write about that?
And there really is no good reason except for that he is Brett Favre, and the media loves him. He is the one that takes a dive, and yet people blame Strahan for it when they talk to him saying it with hatred like he got he record that way. Not his fault though, you bootleg to his side, your going to get in trouble, especially if the protection isn't rollout or sprint protection. He had to take a dive or else strahan would have leveled him. To take it one step further, if I was the OC I'd be pissed because that wasn't the play called either I assume if he did call his own play. I don't care if he is a hall of famer as well, when a run is called when your trying to run out the clock don't run it! What happens if he tears something while doing that? Why risk it? But nope no egg on his face for that dumb move.
I like the Giants, so most of this conversation is lost on me. I'm happy for Strahan, and he was a big reason I rooted for the Giants against the Ravens (even though I wanted Ray Lewis to win too) and also a reason I wanted them to beat the Pats (though obviously there were bigger reasons). As for the sack record, I liked how it went down. F Gastineau. That bitch pussied out for an ugly, yes ugly bitch. As far as Strahan, people want to rip him for getting the record, and now Favre is getting slammed. Come on. He was just shy of the record, it's not like Favre handed him 3 that day. Two of the game's best players at the time were involved in a record-setting play. I understand that as Jets fans we hold on to whatever we can, but to rip into Strahan is simply petty and reeks of envy. What we should be doing is hoping Gholston someday takes back the record, not lamenting its loss to a true HoF player.
I completely agree. Favre should definitely be held accountable. It shows a complete lack of respect for the game when you do something like this. I'd like to see someone break his TD record by having the defender just let the WR run past without covering the receiver just to give them a gift.
So if Gastineau's girlfriend was pretty then Favre shouldn't have laid down to give Strahan the record? I'm not following the logic. A record is a record, you either break it or you don't, but it should be done within the context of the game. I don't think the Jet fans are green with envy in this case, had Strahan chased him down and actually sacked him I'd have had no problem with it. I think it's how it went down rather than who did it.
